A HARD ZELDA? NO THANK YOU, SIR!




Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

http://www.nintendoeverything.com/?p=2069


Quoted post: “Frankly, some of the so-called ‘franchise games’ are quite difficult for nongamers to play, so making accessible games for these players is key. With Zelda, we have to consider how to make it accessible for new gamers to pick up and play and enjoy just as hardcore gamers have.


A couple days ago I was like **** YES TWO NEW ZELDAS and now a couple days later I'm like WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO ME NINTENDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

So yeah, two of the easiest games I can think of, Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy, are apparently much too difficult. So! The next iterations will be easier, more accessible. Cause, you know, that makes sense.

IN CONCLUSION: haha, oh wow



Posted by Degeneration

If this is the direction that Nintendo's going... I won't be following for long.

The only way to make New Super Mario Bros any easier would be to add a "Win" button.




Posted by mis0

The stuff currently on the Wii is rediculously easy as it is. Didn't Nintendo make a name for themselves with hard games, like the real sequel to the Super Mario Bros?




Posted by Alastor


Quoting Alastor: it's pretty much high time that I jump ship.


Oh, wow. It's like they're trying to get rid of their core audience at this point.



Posted by Ant

idk, the original mario's on the nes were pretty simple in themselves, but also hard at the same time. I just don't think you can do that nowadays with 3D games.




Posted by Zeta

*** forbid casual gamers practice and improve like everyone else did back in the days of Contra and TMNT and stuff.

And of course adding difficulty levels is COMPLETELY OUT OF THE QUESTION.




Posted by BLUNTMASTER X

Just have infinite lives and forgiving retries. Jesus Christ. ANYTHING, PLEASE, ANYTHING




Posted by Zeta

in b4 a metroid where you're given 50 energy tanks at the start, infinite missiles, an arrow onscreen that always tells you where to go, missile/bomb/etc blocks that aren't disguised, and bosses that take 3 missiles to kill.

:(




Posted by Speedfreak


Quoted post: “Frankly, some of the so-called ‘franchise games’ are quite difficult for nongamers to play, so making accessible games for these players is key. With Zelda, we have to consider how to make it accessible for new gamers to pick up and play and enjoy just as hardcore gamers have.


I think this is still their "being everyone back to the starting line" mantra. I think he's talking about the challenge of understanding how the game works and the challenge of the interface, not the challenge of the game itself.

Hardcore gamers aren't more or less skilled than regular people, really, we just have more experience. Once a non-gamer got to grips with the controls and gameplay they should be just as capable as any of us, and likewise the game would be equally challenging.

If Nintendo doesn't get then they're being insanely foolish, but as much as I initially raged at this I think it might just be a misunderstanding.



Posted by O.T.L

miyamoto in his photo looks like, "hey don't look at me it wasn't my idea."

and yeah, it looks like their ignoring hardcore gamers for now. Wonder how long it will take for them to make games for the real fans, IF that happens.




Posted by Stalolin

i thought this sort of thing was why they invented easy mode and hard mode




Posted by Prince Shondronai

Speedfreak is most likely correct. Making the core franchises easier to pick up and play does not necessarily mean that they'll be easier to complete. Just that Normal Person doesn't need an hour's worth of Tutorial Town to learn how to make Link obey his/her commands in such a way that the first rat they run into won't kill them.




Posted by Noir

I'll join in on the wishful thinking.




Posted by Linko_16

How is this new? Zelda hasn't been hard since Link to the Past.




Posted by BLUNTMASTER X

Oracle of Ages was pretty tricky.




Posted by Zeta

I recall people *****ing about the Gyorg fight in MM.

How, I have no idea.




Posted by Vampiro V. Empire


Quoted post: I think this is still their "being everyone back to the starting line" mantra. I think he's talking about the challenge of understanding how the game works and the challenge of the interface, not the challenge of the game itself.


How easier can they make it? One button+waggle? As is the first hour or so leads you painfully by the hand assuming you're a complete idiot. And for TP the rest of the game is hardly any different. You're always on a direct path with very simple controls and always told exactly what to do and how to play.

Do they want it like Wii Music? No matter the button your press you win?



Posted by maian

Once you figure out Gyorg, he's cake. At least the enemies and some bosses in OOT and MM actually inflicted damage. You get hit ten times in WW or TP, QUARTER HEART LOL

Enemies like Iron Knuckles were hard because they took 4+ hearts. If anything, I'd totally be fine with a higher difficulty that leaves everything the same, but ups the damage you take. JUST doing that would make it harder, and it's probably all Nintendo would care to do, anyway.




Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

that and the wolf was easy mode. HOLD BUTTON TO INSTAKILL EVERYTHING




Posted by Fate


Quoting Speedfreak: Hardcore gamers aren't more or less skilled than regular people, really, we just have more experience. Once a non-gamer got to grips with the controls and gameplay they should be just as capable as any of us, and likewise the game would be equally challenging.


The thing is that a lot of people that play games today have played Zelda before and know the game content well. I've played Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask more times than I cared to count, and I've played the Oracle games a few times as well. I know the core of what the game does. So, after all these years we've been playing subsequent iterations of the same core game that puts out fantastic entries to the series, the experienced gamers need something new and more "challenging" than what we've been through twenty times. Nintendo needs to do something in Zelda that nobody has seen before or hardly saw coming. For me, Majora's Mask was a giant step in the right direction.

But with this quote we're all reading here, that's apparently not going to happen. It's going to be Twilight Princess 2.




Posted by Vampiro V. Empire


Quoted post: The thing is that a lot of people that play games today have played Zelda before and know the game content well.


Well, we know that's not what Nintendo cares about anyways. They're trying to reach the non-gamer/casual gamer not someone who has replayed the Zelda series over and over.


Quoted post: But with this quote we're all reading here, that's apparently not going to happen. It's going to be Twilight Princess 2.


Sounds to me like TP wasn't what the want either. Something far more basic and easy to comprehend. Plus, they said awhile ago that TP would be the last traditional Zelda we'd see in a long time.



Posted by Speedfreak

[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;865851]How easier can they make it? One button+waggle? As is the first hour or so leads you painfully by the hand assuming you're a complete idiot. And for TP the rest of the game is hardly any different. You're always on a direct path with very simple controls and always told exactly what to do and how to play.

Do they want it like Wii Music? No matter the button your press you win?

Play Phantom Hourglass, that should give you some idea of how much simpler the control system can get without the game actually being less difficult. Hell, the game was more challenging than Twilight Princess.

[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;866237]Sounds to me like TP wasn't what the want either. Something far more basic and easy to comprehend. Plus, they said awhile ago that TP would be the last traditional Zelda we'd see in a long time.

See above, TP was going to be the last of it's kind and so far it is. Phantom Hourglass ditched the moving camera and went top-down (for dungeons anyway) and controlled with nothing but the stylus. We could see the same thing happening with the next Wii game.




Posted by Noir

Perhaps--now this is me just clutching at the tattered rags of my hope--they don't mean necessarily bringing the difficulty level down. Maybe they just mean taking advantage of the Wii to innovate the controls further; we all felt as if Twilight Princess' Wii controls were 'tacked-on', so maybe making everything more...I don't know...context-sensitive? (not sure if that's the right word). It won't have to be all kiddy and colorful and whatnot, just...more fun to the average person, including both the hard-core Zelda fan and others new to the gaming world.




Posted by Vampiro V. Empire


Quoted post: -they don't mean necessarily bringing the difficulty level down.


Obviously. Because they can't bring it down any further. TP and WW offered no challenge. Even the bosses would do minimal damage, even when you had twenty hearts to spare.

Anyways, they can do whatever they want to the controls. But fans for a long time now have been demanding a more difficult, challenging experience. And that would, well, fly in the face of making it more accessible. If a non-gamer can't wrap their hand around the already fairly simple controls they likely wouldn't be able to make it through the difficulty of TP as is.



Posted by BLUNTMASTER X

Phantom Hourglass was a challenge.

A CHALLENGE OF YOUR ****ING PATIENCE WHILE YOU WENT THROUGH THE TEMPLE OF THE ****ING OCEAN KING FOR THE 20TH TIME ARGH **** **** **** RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR *BITES SELF*




Posted by Speedfreak

I loved that dungeon, it was like planning a heist.

This is why Zelda games aren't hard anymore, people bitch whenever they throw in difficulty because they forget that Zelda is a thinking game. Your frustration at being totally lost is my sweet, delicious conundrum.




Posted by Zeta


Quoting Speedfreak: I loved that dungeon, it was like planning a heist.


****ing finally, I thought I was the only one.



Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

Replaying a dungeon over and over or throwing in ****ty puzzles like moving blocks in a certain way (those statues in TP, the ice blocks in OoT) isn't a challenge, it's just annoying. A challenge would be honest to *** puzzles and bosses who inflict more than 1/4 of a heart of damage.




Posted by Speedfreak

The dungeon wasn't the same every time, every revisit changed the context. It went from being some MGS-style sneaking mission to you ruling the place, dispatching the guards with perfect Home Alone-style trickery.

Dunno what you have against the block puzzles, I mean they are actual puzzles. There's only so much you can do after 20 years. I don't really care about the bosses because, unless it's a swordfight, they'd suck no matter how difficult they were. They're easy to predict and generally boring to fight. Zelda ain't no Treasure game.




Posted by Vampiro V. Empire


Quoted post: Dunno what you have against the block puzzles, I mean they are actual puzzles.


They're the lowest form of puzzles. Ridiculously stupid.



Posted by BLUNTMASTER X

[quote=Speedfreak;866362]There's only so much you can do after 20 years.now apply this argument to every game you have ever called a rehash




Posted by Speedfreak

*and keeping up variety. They could throw a portal gun into Zelda, but they'd spent half the time getting it working. The room to room puzzles were never all that taxing, it was navigating the dungeons themselves that usually proved most difficult. TP axed it entirely and exposed the easy puzzles for what they were.




Posted by Ant

I found some of the "puzzles" in TP to be pretty hard. Well, not sure if you'd call it puzzles or dungeon exploring, but I got stuck in the Water Temple and "Desert" temple area for quite some time. Maybe I'm just a moron though.

Regardless, if you really think about it, how many do you know who don't really like games went and rushed out to play TP? Or, how many do think got it when the system first came out because it was a launch title and played it for an hour never to play it again? SO, this leaves Nintendo kind of in a half way point. Not easy enough for the casual crowd, but not hard enough for the hardcore crowd. I figure/hope that the next installment will actually lean toward the hardcore side of things and they'll actually make the game a bit more challenging. If only to hold on to that group of gamers.




Posted by Speedfreak

It really just proves that Nintendo focused too much on the wrong area of difficulty. They should've made it easier to play for the new gamers and harder to complete for us.




Posted by Fate

It's not always about the difficulty of the puzzles, but how fun they are to accomplish.

If I could get the same great puzzle-solving feeling again from a Zelda game like I did in the Spirit Temple I think I would lead a better gaming life.




Posted by BLUNTMASTER X

The Spirit Temple puzzles aren't as hard as you remember them. Seriously. Ocarina of Time as a whole was pretty easy. Majora's Mask, however, had some pretty great stages. Having to use an enemy's attack to propel you over a fence? Genius.




Posted by Fate

They weren't hard, just fun.




Posted by Ant


Quoting Fate: They weren't hard, just fun.


I DON'T THINK YOU REALIZE THIS BUT THEY WERE TOO EASY! HOW MANY TIMES MUST IT BE SAID?~!



Posted by Speedfreak

[quote=The X;866541]The Spirit Temple puzzles aren't as hard as you remember them. Seriously. Ocarina of Time as a whole was pretty easy. Majora's Mask, however, had some pretty great stages. Having to use an enemy's attack to propel you over a fence? Genius.

I'm racking my brain but I really can't remember when that happens.

I recommend Link's Awakening to anyone who wants level design on par with Majora's Mask.




Posted by BLUNTMASTER X

Stone Tower Temple.




Posted by #061402


Quoting Vampiro V. Empire: Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy, are apparently much too difficult.


wat

What age-group are they aming at, five year old kids? And besides, what the hell happened to the instruction booklet? IT'S ALL IN THERE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Not to mention it takes maybe two minutes of running around in the first area where it's almost impossible to die (in most games, at least) to learn the controls properly.

Sure, Nintendo might be focusing a lot of "Family-friendly" games, but seriously, how much programming does it take to add in a Hard mode? Or Easy mode, for the new players. TP took me ages to complete because I got bored with it, while I've been playing a ****load of Naruto: Rise of a Ninja because it gets more and more challenging the further you progress. THAT'S how a game should be.



Posted by Speedfreak

Most people aren't willing to read an instruction manual carefully for a form of entertainment they're not familiar with when they could just watch a move or TV. We've already established they're talking about a different kind of difficulty anyway.




Posted by maian

I think it's a lot easier for gamers to adapt the "pick up and play" mindset. I've been playing video games since I was 3. Therefore, when I play a game, even if it has complex controls, I can quickly learn them, and most likely predict where I'll have to use what kind of controls and when.

It seems most casual players who haven't played games before are much, much more retarded. As gamers, it's hard for us to comprehend. But I've met so many people who are all "WUT B IS SWARD ATTACK WUT WEN DO I USE SWORDZ OH GAWD ITS TOO HARD THIS SUX". For some reason, there's a lot of casual players who can't seem to wrap their minds around a control scheme, whereas almost all hardcore gamers can get comfortable with it in a matter of minutes.




Posted by #061402


Quoting Speedfreak: We've already established they're talking about a different kind of difficulty anyway.


Eh, I've learned never to doubt Mr. Surprise.


Quoting maian: For some reason, there's a lot of casual players who can't seem to wrap their minds around a control scheme, whereas almost all hardcore gamers can get comfortable with it in a matter of minutes.


I wonder if that means Nintendo will abandon their old fans for the sake of profit. Why make games for the casual gamers who maybe buy one game every year anyway?



Posted by Speedfreak

[quote=maian;866608]I think it's a lot easier for gamers to adapt the "pick up and play" mindset. I've been playing video games since I was 3. Therefore, when I play a game, even if it has complex controls, I can quickly learn them, and most likely predict where I'll have to use what kind of controls and when.

It seems most casual players who haven't played games before are much, much more retarded. As gamers, it's hard for us to comprehend. But I've met so many people who are all "WUT B IS SWARD ATTACK WUT WEN DO I USE SWORDZ OH GAWD ITS TOO HARD THIS SUX". For some reason, there's a lot of casual players who can't seem to wrap their minds around a control scheme, whereas almost all hardcore gamers can get comfortable with it in a matter of minutes.

Something hit me the other day, how much gamers use the word "item" when talking about games and just how little it comes up in regular conversation. It's like the equivalent to the word "content" when talking about, well, what we know as content. It's a totally alien language, I'm not surprised people struggle to get into video games when even the instruction manuals aren't in English.




Posted by Shade

You mean you don't use "item" casually in conversation? I do.




Posted by Speedfreak

...are you a sales clerk by any chance? Regardless, it doesn't carry the same meaning. In regular conversation an item is just an object or a product, in games it is usually a tool or generally something beneficial like a powerup. For instance, "I got a new item" isn't used in regular conversation but has a specific meaning when you're talking about a videogame.




Posted by Fate

You don't say you need to pick up some "items" in the store, you say you need to get some "things" or "stuff". I work in retail so I use the word all the time, but in casual speech is sounds funny.




Posted by maian

True. :cookie:

I think most of us just don't realize how much more seasoned we are with games than other people. Most of us have grown up with it, so it just seems so much more natural.




Posted by #061402

Still, I remember picking up gaming quick as hey. If my parents ever tried, they'd twirl their heads off, but younger people should be able to pick it up quickly.

And for the older-while-not-too-old there should be Easy mode.




Posted by Noir

I'll keep my faith in the Zelda series, and rely on the hope that the Zelda team can't (or at least haven't yet) really make a BAD game. Just a bad Zelda game...
Who knows? Maybe it was somewhat of a mistranslation and those "fundamental changes" will be something the series has needed for a while.
Or maybe we'll have Super Zelda Soccer.
Only time and a trailer or two will tell.




Posted by Vasioth

Wait, Zelda can actually be made easier? I thought they were easy enough as it is (well, maybe except Seasons, I always had trouble with it near the end). I was actually hoping they'd do the opposite and make them harder...

And I really hope anything like a Super Zelda Soccer doesn't happen, too many games like that are being released (for example, Mario and Sonic at the olympics, Sega Superstars, etc etc). Or maybe it might not be a bad idea who knows...