Ken Levine GDC presentation

Posted by Poco

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6186365.html

GDC 08 OFF TO A GREAT START, LETS HOPE EVERY JRPG THERE IS DESTROYED

Posted by WillisGreeny

meh...w/e. I know for a fact that some people thrive off pointless details. Stories can appeal or not appeal, it's all depending on the audience. To make big sweeping generalizations about all gamers is just stupid.

Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

No, he's right. He's talking to developers. Fact of the matter is, details generally don't sell. Lost Odyssey for example will never reach the sales of Halo or Call of Duty, no matter how detailed and intricate it is. The average gamer just doesn't care. That's why 2/3 of Halo's backstory (which is incredibly detailed mind you) is completely left out of the games. Bungie knows the mass market doesn't care about that. They just want to shoot aliens.

People who care about deep plots and intricacies are the minority, and developers don't want to sell to a niche market, they're a business after all.

Posted by WillisGreeny

There's a difference between mainstream marketing and specific demographic marketing. This guy is right about the mainstream marketing, just like with the halo example mentioned, but to say there isn't a market for games loaded with plot is wrong. Nich marketing is a huge part of marketing. People who understand it best are the ones who expand the market. He was speaking as if there was no such thing as a gamer who loved plot. The words he should have said was It won't sell as well, not that nobody cares and storytellers are **** out of luck.

Posted by Last Fog

That's what's great about Bioshock. The story isn't forced on you. It's told mostly through the diaries and radio messages, which you can choose to just ignore. Developers should find ways to make a game with a deep plot, but doesn't hinder your progression if you just want to run through it.

Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

Quoted post: There's a difference between mainstream marketing and specific demographic marketing. This guy is right about the mainstream marketing, just like with the halo example mentioned, but to say there isn't a market for games loaded with plot is wrong. Nich marketing is a huge part of marketing. People who understand it best are the ones who expand the market. He was speaking as if there was no such thing as a gamer who loved plot. The words he should have said was It won't sell as well, not that nobody cares and storytellers are **** out of luck.


You didn't read the full thing then. Levine is saying the mainstream market doesn't care, they don't want to be bothered with plot, and never does BioShock force it upon you. However, the plot and intricacies are still there. Like Last Fog said, Levine is stressing that it's essential to add those details without ruining the experience for casual gamers. ie audio diaries. He wants developers to realise it's important to please everyone and to do that you DON'T do what basically every RPG does, which is force plot and story down your throat, rather they should let you ignore it if you please, or seek it out if you're truly interested. BioShock is both Halo and quite a deep shooter with a great story, it just depends what type of gamer you are.

You clearly missed this part:

Quoted post: Then there are the hardcore fans.

"You know how there are kids who listen to music, like it, dance it and get into it, but then there's that weird kid in the back of the classroom who'll be writing all the Nirvana lyrics on his notebook," Levine asked. "That's the level of the people who get into the game that you have to support."

That's the crowd for whom the developers threw in a host of wrinkles, obscure clues, and little touches to help flesh out the story. The key, according to Levine, is that all the extra depth for the hardcore fan cannot be allowed to get in the way of the experience for the more casual player who just wants something along the lines of Madden or Halo.

Posted by Big Boss

I got there for the last few minutes. I really wanted to attend the lecture, but I had something else to do.

I did read the article on it, and he's dead on... as long as it fits what you want out of the game you're making.

And congrats to Ken Levine for kicking *** with BioShock in tonight's awards (Well, and Portal...). Watch the awards on G4 later. :)

Posted by WillisGreeny

I didn't read the whole article because I thought the main points were at the top, like a newspaper story (eeck, ****ing article form). That makes sense to a certain degree: Make games that can appeal to the mainstream audience-but still having easter eggs and other clues that can be sought out by the content driven gamers aswell. It becomes more of a question about form/content. My question is how will this model change as video games audiences change. Right now most people don't care about plot, but the videogame medium is still expanding, same with the marketing. idk, I'm just against the notion that Levine seems to propose as "this is how it works, and it's not going to change". I don't believe that's what he really believes, so much as that's how the article portrays him (now that I have read the whole thing). Maybe, someone who's very talented, will someday make a videogame's plot work shakespearien and will expand the market to lots of plot driven people who've only been reading books.

...Or maybe my idealism has gotten the best of me...hell...reading isn't popular anymore these days, so it probably won't happen anyway.

Posted by Fate

I think that's one of the reasons I like Gears of War so much. You run and shoot with little tidbits of story falling around. You really don't know what's going on until you get bored and decide to research. I think it was the first game that appealed to my aggressive side as a gamer, which in turn got me hooked on XBL. **** stories, more shooting!

Posted by Poco

why the hell is this moved out of wacko u, i posted it there

Posted by S

Because the thread isn't stupid enough.

Posted by BLUNTMASTER X

Too good a topic to be wasted on that **** hole.

Also, Gears of War didn't have a story. Even if you were looking for one. I sure as hell was, and all I got was BIG HOLES WITH EARTH-ALIENS COMING OUT OF THEM

Posted by Zeta

That's about as complicated as a video game story should be.

Posted by Fate

Quoting The X: Also, Gears of War didn't have a story. Even if you were looking for one. I sure as hell was, and all I got was BIG HOLES WITH EARTH-ALIENS COMING OUT OF THEM


There's a whole war that went on before the locust ever came up. The story explains why the locust came up, what the war was about, and the history of Marcus Fenix. There's more, too, but you catch my drift. Also, they're not on Earth.
Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

Yeah, Gears is not too different from Halo in terms of story. The developers put quite a bit of thought and effort into the story but really only put the bare minimum into the game. It's there for the people who care, but casuals can still just run and gun and look at the pretty graphics.

Quoted post: Right now most people don't care about plot, but the videogame medium is still expanding, same with the marketing. idk, I'm just against the notion that Levine seems to propose as "this is how it works, and it's not going to change".


You missed his point again I think. He's not saying it'll never change, he's just pointing out that's how it is now. He can't predict the future, but he can help developers expand their games to a larger audience, and really, that's the whole point of GDC. Developers giving tips to their peers to make games better for everyone. And why wouldn't you want to take tips from Levine? He's the main force behind both System Shock 2 and BioShock. Both amazingly fun, both with great plots and stories, but still relatively simple. BioShock was a massive game, people loved the gameplay and found the story really engaging, so obviously he knows what he's talking about. He can sell his games to two distinct audiences and make everyone happy. And that's what developers want.