Casual gaming definition argument

Posted by Speedfreak

Ashen - get Terranigma on SNES, Ikaruga and Pikmin 2 on GC and the new Advance wars on DS. Tha'll do for now.

[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;814921]In before Speedfreak and "man, casual and hardcore or just made up terms, man. they don't mean anything."

Fine, I'll play by your rules.

[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;814921]I don't think anyone would argue Guitar Hero is hardcore.

FIRST MISTAKE, F[COLOR=lightgreen]U[/COLOR]CKER.

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0qM6-HLuk[/URL]

You really should've seen that coming.


[quote=Fate;814874][COLOR=skyblue]Of course it's not hardcore because pretty much anyone can play it[/COLOR]

BAHAHAHAHA.

Yes Fate, Chess is for casual gamers for the very same reason.

Posted by BLUNTMASTER X

You should probably go ahead and name some more examples, so that Vamp and I can go ahead and make a counter-point, to which you'll make a counter-counter-point, to which we'll make a 'lol u dont make sense', to which you'll reply 'morons', until the thread is derailed worse than the Madras-Tuticorin.

Go on.

Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

Quoted post: FIRST MISTAKE, ****ER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV0qM6-HLuk

You really should've seen that coming.


One song on expert = FUKKEN HARDCORE

lol, you're such a faggot. It's a casual game. A higher difficulty (made for, oh, idk, expert players) doesn't make a game casual or hardcore. It's the audience it's marketed for and the accessibility of it. Rhythm games are largely casual, whether they have higher difficulties or not.
Posted by Speedfreak

[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;815024]One song on expert = FUKKEN HARDCORE

lol, you're such a faggot. It's a casual game. A higher difficulty (made for, oh, idk, expert players) doesn't make a game casual or hardcore. It's the audience it's marketed for and the accessibility of it. Rhythm games are largely casual, whether they have higher difficulties or not.

Gee, this whole time I thought all a game needed to be was hardcore the depth to appeal to dedicated players. But you're saying it's just a game with a specific demographic (unspecified) and lacking in game design to where it's less accessible than it should be.

We better tell Ashen, it sounded like he just wanted some deeper games to sink some time into.

Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

On top of that, obviously. You won't see timesinks like Oblivion on your typical casual game list. But in the case of Guitar Hero, that's exactly it. It's made to appeal to a casual gamer or someone who has never played a video game before. The depth is there on harder difficulties for hardcore players, but the whole game is designed for casual players. Seriously, I can't see how you can say otherwise. You won't see Fallout being played on Ellen. The very idea of it obviously appeals to moms who watch day-time television, I think that'd fall under casual/non-gamer...

Posted by Speedfreak

Ashen isn't asking for games that weren't popular enough to appear on Ellen, he just wants games with depth that he can sink some time into. I don't think he cares whether his family can play with him or not.

I like how the arguement for your definition hinges on day-time TV rather than what kind of gamer the game in question could appeal to.

Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

Thread was about hardcore games, a casual game was mentioned, I asked how it was considered hardcore which was never really answered and here we are! I honestly don't care what the OP is asking for or what the thread is really about, I just thought EBA in a hardcore game thread was funny.

Quoted post: I like how the arguement for your definition hinges on day-time TV rather than what kind of gamer the game in question could appeal to.


We've already had this argument many times, haven't we? What hardcore means and what casual means should be pretty clear by now, you know, if you couldn't already tell by the words themselves. Though I like how you pick an example I made and turned it into my entire point and definition. Haha, wow. You're a faggot.
Posted by Speedfreak

[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;815055]Thread was about hardcore games, a casual game was mentioned, I asked how it was considered hardcore which was never really answered and here we are! I honestly don't care what the OP is asking for or what the thread is really about, I just thought EBA in a hardcore game thread was funny.



We've already had this argument many times, haven't we? What hardcore means and what casual means should be pretty clear by now, you know, if you couldn't already tell by the words themselves.

The words fit my definition perfectly, a hardcore game is a game that appeals to hardcore gamers, a casual game is one that is lacking in difficulty. Is that an illogical conclusion to draw? Don't answer that, you can't think objectively worth a damn.

Posted by S

Super-Mod Fight! Super-Mod Fight! Super-Mod Fight!

Posted by Arcadios

No, S

Posted by Roger Smith

You guys will never have epic fights like me and PHM did.

Posted by Shade

Quoting Speedfreak: a casual game is one that is lacking in difficulty. Is that an illogical conclusion to draw?


Yes.
Posted by Omni

I like how Speedfreak did exactly what Vampiro said he would do, which was create an "argument" that was eventually split into this thread.

[quote]i mean SARCASTIC REBUTTAL CAUSE MY POINT WAS SHOT DOWN LOL
Last edited by Speedfreak : Today at 11:33 AM.

Can't shoot down OPINIONS. I realize you don't know what they are, but you haven't changed his way of thinking. In other words, this "argument" is pointless. He doesn't think it's a "hardcore" game, but some guy on YouTube said one song was "hardcore" so logically it must be, since opinions are the new facts.

But hey, at least I got a good laugh out of it. Too bad you didn't actually accomplish anything or state anything of any meaning. Not everyone agrees with everyone else, and treating one's own opinions as facts definitely won't change it.

Notice the part where Vampiro said this:

Quoting Vampiro V. Empire: [COLOR="Lime"]I don't think[/COLOR] anyone would argue Guitar Hero is hardcore.


Yeah, opinion. Sooo predictable. Actually feeling the need to argue against his opinion and "cite sources" (which are YouTube videos lol) is pretty sad.

Argument over. [COLOR="Lime"]What's "casual" and what's "hardcore" is mostly subjective and up to the opinions of whoever's playing the game.[/COLOR] Someone made a thread asking for recommendations of what people think are "hardcore" and "casual" games, so logically opinions come into play.
Posted by Ant

I like how you came in and defended your lover. cute.

Posted by Roger Smith

lol reminds me when vamp would swoop in and defend Omni

Posted by S

Vamp doesn't have an opinion. He spews fact, law, and grim.

Seriously though, you come in and defend Vamp but your post acts as a double-edged sword. Go you.

Posted by Omni

Saw a post by Speedfreak in a thread with a title that describes his posting style perfectly.

Mostly, I find the whole way he's arguing that someone can't have an opinion that he and someone on YouTube disagree with to be pretty hilarious. I'm not defending anyone. I'm explaining why an "argument" such as this makes no sense whatsoever.

Posted by Speedfreak

My work is done here.

*WHOOSH*

Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

Quoted post: The words fit my definition perfectly, a hardcore game is a game that appeals to hardcore gamers, a casual game is one that is lacking in difficulty. Is that an illogical conclusion to draw? Don't answer that, you can't think objectively worth a ****.


So if a game is easy it's casual? Oblivion is an incredibly easy game. I never died once, never ran into an roadblocks, the game sets waypoints and holds your hand every step of the way. Very easy. Everything about it from the controls, to character interaction to goals to player management and so on is easily handled. But casual? No. Not at all. So this is what I mean by appealing to a casual demographic. Oblivion is a niche game, and therefore it's hardcore, no matter the difficulty. It was never intended for the non-gamer. It was marketed to the hardcore, even if it's easily playable. You need a game that not only looks casual but is designed for the casual market. And in the case of Guitar Hero, that's exactly what they did. They made their own unique controller that looks incredibly simple and easy to use, and it is. They had non-gamers and casual gamers in mind with that, much like Nintendo did with the Wiimote. Again, this is demonstrated by appearing on a womans' show, Ellen, and having hundreds of moms cheering for a kid playing the game. The idea of it appeals to people who don't even care about gaming. Casual.

EBA is similar in structure. You simply tap a screen to the beat of the music. You can pick it up and play with no investment into it whatsoever, even if it's not the easiest game ever made. There's no dedication involved and it's a very casual experience that can be enjoyed by people who don't even like games. So I honestly don't think your definition is apt at all. It's not completely illogical, just overly-simple.
Posted by Speedfreak

Oblivion doesn't lack depth. Difficulty does't just apply to how challenging the game is but how difficult it is to comprehend. Try to explain all the different stats, how the combat system works etc to someone who's only ever played Jenga and you'll be met with a blank stare. I meant difficulty in the same way Chess is a difficult game, because it's complex. The actual challenge lies in your opponent but it requires much more effort to simply learn to play than, say, checkers.

Judging a casual game by it's accessibility is rather unfair in my opinion. If a game has a lot of depth but is still very accessible then it's just extremely well designed, casual implies a lack of depth and short play time.

In fact, that's what casual means. A lack of commitment. I think if a game like Guitar Hero is good enough to be enjoyable in short bursts or for several hours, and has the depth to appeal to hardcore gamers and the accesibility to appeal to casual gamers then it's obviously neither one nor the other. By that same token Phantom Hourglass, while just as complex and difficult as other Zeldas, isn't a casual game just because tons of girls and 40 year olds are now playing it.

Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

Quoted post: Oblivion doesn't lack depth. Difficulty does't just apply to how challenging the game is but how difficult it is to comprehend. Try to explain all the different stats, how the combat system works etc to someone who's only ever played Jenga and you'll be met with a blank stare. I meant difficulty in the same way Chess is a difficult game, because it's complex. The actual challenge lies in your opponent but it requires much more effort to simply learn to play than, say, checkers.


Difficulty doesn't really factor in depth though, so you should've clarified that even if I suspected that's what you were going for. Though it's not like Oblivion is very hard to learn anyways, or even very complex, much of its difficulty will rest in finding the time to play it. Everything about it is basic, especially the combat system. It really just comes down to who the game was marketed for. If you ask me, it's the RPG equivalent of WoW, in the sense that it's almost "My First RPG." Not saying WoW is casual, but just that it's basic and could potentially attract the right non-gamers (which WoW does.) Marketed correctly, Oblivion could do something similar.

Quoted post: Judging a casual game by it's accessibility is rather unfair in my opinion. If a game has a lot of depth but is still very accessible then it's just extremely well designed, casual implies a lack of depth and short play time.


Again, it depends on your definition of casual I guess. Look at, let's say, Endless Ocean. I'd consider that the definitive casual experience, but still has quite a bit of depth given the number of species to collect, the amount of ocean you can cover, the various objectives and the amount of time you can sink into the game. But it's definitely designed for casual play as it's just a leisurely experience (sorta like Oblivion could be if you choose to play it that way.) So I'd say depth, difficulty and play-time doesn't quite cover it.

Also, just because a game is attractive to a hardcore audience doesn't necessarily make it a hardcore game (or not a casual game.) Like EBA, many hardcore players enjoy it (probably more hardcore gamers than casual considering how poorly it was marketed) but it's a casual experience much like Guitar Hero. EBA can be incredibly challenging on harder difficulties, like Guitar Hero, but that's there for people who want the challenge. Doesn't define it one way or the other, since the basic game is still a casual game.

As for PH, nothing about it is deep or complex. In fact, it's the easiest and most straight-forward Zelda so far, though I'd never say any main Zelda game is a casual game. If you ask me, it's similar to Oblivion in the sense that it's a niche game, no matter how easy it may be.
Posted by Speedfreak

[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;815338]Again, it depends on your definition of casual I guess.

Oh so now it's okay to have a different idea of what it means? =P

I wouldn't call Endless Ocean a casual game (nor a hardcore one) because it simply isn't even a game. I don't think Wii Sports lovers are the ones that picked it up, either. Try explaining to them a game that costs $40 that doesn't have any gameplay, any way to win or lose and all you do is swim. I can't see them buying it at all. The people that picked it up were probably hardcore gamers that are so interested and curious about games as a medium that they picked it up to see what kind of experience it could deliver. It would appeal to an extremely small niche.

This is a total hypothesis, I've no idea how it sold or to who. But in my experience people new to video games expect simple, raw gameplay like they'd find in any sport or board game. Their lack of exposure to video games stops them realising that they can deliver a whole other kind of experience on top of that.

Posted by Vampiro V. Empire

Quoted post: Oh so now it's okay to have a different idea of what it means? =P


No, but you seem to have a fairly different one than I do. Maybe not completely different, but a basic version of it nonetheless.

Quoted post: I wouldn't call Endless Ocean a casual game (nor a hardcore one) because it simply isn't even a game.


Why isn't it? It has goals, missions, objectives and you still have to manage air like you would life in a regular game. It's certainly a game, though you can choose to ignore the more game-like aspects of it. It appeals to my sister who is the definition of a casual gamer and same with my mom who is a total nongamer. My sister enjoys how lenient the game is, but still has a goal to reach and a mission to complete. My mom on the other hand just likes swimming around petting fish and adding them to the catalogue. It's most definitely a casual game.