I have yet to know anyone to have any sort of benefit from it. Prices of EVERYTHING has gone up to offset it and our American dollar devalued so much, I might as well use it as toilet paper, instead of actual toilet paper.
Sure, theres the argument that it was a good idea for those who have loans, and yes I agree it was. HOWEVER, for people who have money in the bank collecting in interest, the value of what you had, has greatly dropped. Now granted I agree people with loans still benefit greatly from this. Good for the college students and such.
But then theres Grandma and Grandpa. They have fixed incomes and they have to fight the rising costs. Sucks doesn't it?? Now grandma and grandpa can't go to that retirement home they always wanted to, because they're fixed incomes can't afford the new cost of the home.
Then theres Mr. Small business man. Ohh ho ho i've seen a lot of small business's go out of business recently. The little honest guy who only marks up his prices 15% so he can crush his local small competitors. However he has a few employee's. Now he has to raise the employee's pay, and to offset it, raise his prices. Now the guy down the corner who only has himself and his wife working, don't need to increase their prices because its just them working. Now the other guy loses out and hurts business.
So do tell me guys. You all swore up and down that it worked in Austrailia and that it'd work so very well here. Oh not to mention some of the jump in gas was due to the increase too. So do tell.. Wheres the benefit?? Is it supposed to still be coming down the road?? I had to get a second job working 10 extra hours each week, to fight off the costs. My pay has increased 30 cents, and yet everything else (including my meals at Mcdonalds that used to cost me 4.19 is now almost 7 bucks) has greatly increased in price.
BENEFIT MO F*CKERS??
We have the minimum wage here in the UK. I don't know if you forgot, but the minimum wage benefits those on the very lowest of pay levels, durrrrrrrrrrrrr.
I have no idea what you're on about. I said increasing the minimum wage will help those on the lowest levels of pay.
But it doesn't help when everything else goes up in price. It equals it out and hurts those making more.
Um, okay what's your suggestion then? To never increase it ever again? To let it stay at $5.15 forever and ever? You do realize that it hasn't been increased even once in 10 years, right? And that inflation has occurred regardless during the 10 past years (proving that obviously there are other factors involved.)
So why is it okay for inflation to occur for 10 years, but not to adjust minimum wage even a little bit? What about in 5 more years, will that be good enough or would you still complain then? 10 more years? Maybe 20 more years would be suitable for you. Let it lag behind for 30 years before we do anything, right? Nah, even that wouldn't be fair. Even then it could cause a bit of temporary discomfort to business owners.
You aren't being very fair here at all. Unless you really, truly believe that minimum wage should stay at $5.15 forever and ever and NEVER be increased again, then OBVIOUSLY it has to increase sooner or later. Now just happened to be that time. And for ***'s sake, it's been 10 years, the longest since any other minimum wage increase in history, it's about time anyway.
And come on, why not even give it a chance? This bill was signed what a week ago? Why not give it some time? Eventually people are going to have more money to spend now, and put that right back into the economy. Of course that's not going to happen overnight, and there will be temporary adjustments, but it will work itself out in the end. Just like it has for every other minimum wage increase in history. I swear to ***, if people like you had your way all the time, I bet minimum wage would still be like $1.25 today and you'd probably be okay with it.
I havent seen a single owner go out of business, nor have I noticed any price increases that werent caused by the rising cost of fuel.
You're an asshat troll, and you need to get teh **** off my internet.
First off no I don't think it should have stayed at 5.15, but a 2 dollar increase is a bit steep for the time being. It would have side effects.
LoS, do you realize that some of gas prices rise was due to the increase of minimum wage?
NOT TO MENTION LAST YEAR THIS TIME WE WERE PAYING OVER 3 DOLLARS AND WE WERENT PAYING NEARLY THIS MUCH FOR FOOD OR ANYTHING ELSE..
Awww is your poor democratic congress failing us and not taking action against gas prices? I agree with what they say, but their actions do little.
You know they say that the guys who brag most often about their cock size actually have the smallest penises. Same with those who bash gays. They are more likely to turn out gay than others.
If Adam Smith were alive today he would slap every single one of you.
I lol'd at the graphs.
"LoS, do you realize that some of gas prices rise was due to the increase of minimum wage? "
then why the **** did you make a thread ****ing and moaning about how the gas companies are screwing us. make up your **** mind, you ******* retard. you're flip floping more than a ****ing pair of sandals.
I hereby pronounce you owned. you may lick my balls.
Psst, you're aware that middle class people who are slightly above minimum wage get paid more as well, right? Honestly, do you think a company owner could manage a business if his most important workers were only getting paid as much as other employees doing menial jobs? There's still going to be a raise for workers who were payed above minimum wage before the increase, or else there'd be quite an outrage and the value of their jobs would decrease.
Raises usually boost morale and effort anyways, so employers shouldn't have any trouble paying competent workers and keeping the business stable.
Uh, that's an exaggeration. Most foods haven't jumped that much. Besides, the point of minimum wage isn't to just benefit the poor. It's to keep up with inflation, moron, so now most working Americans can meet the standard of living. Yeah, things cost a bit more, but the point of raising minimum wage is so that people can still afford it.
Minimum wage only has a minor effect on inflation, and you'd be aware of that if your parents thought you were worth anything above an eigth grade level of education. Apparently they didn't though, so I'd like it if you could take your dumb arguments and pissy attitude the **** off of my site, because calling people stupid yet making no coherent argument is all you seem to be willing to do.
Random, shut your ****ing moron mouth.
A small percent of people are on minimum wage? wtf? Those working for minimum wage are wortheless? Are you on minimum wage, or something?
Minimum wage encourages people to stay on well-fare and to work at entry-level jobs for as long as they can. These reasons alone prove to me that raising minimum wage is a bad thing. How can promoting laziness or living a mediocre life be at all beneficial?
Does nobody think that maybe we need people to work entry-level jobs? wtf would Amerikkka do without its Hispanic population, idk.
[quote=The X;586392]Does nobody think that maybe we need people to work entry-level jobs? wtf would Amerikkka do without its Hispanic population, idk.
I'm not going to delve into an argument using racial traits as part of it. It's just beneath me, frankly. :(
And of course we need people to work entry-level jobs.
[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;586395]haha, oh wow
[URL]http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/against/against.htm[/URL]
" Mothers on welfare in states that raised their minimum wage remained on welfare 44 percent longer than mothers on welfare in states where it was not raised.[[URL="http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/against/against.htm#endnot5"]8[/URL]]"
I know, neat, huh? Personally, I get depressed whenever I speak of **** like this too.
You do realise, as a country, we need those people that work minimum wage jobs right? They're very beneficial, not just to everyone, but the people who also work those jobs. Most aren't lazy or anything simple like that, there's a lot of people that really can't do anything else. An education and all the work and effort that goes into a career just isn't possible for a lot of people. My mom works for Canada's National Network for Mental Health, so we see **** like this all week. If anything, welfare promotes welfare, but people need it, just like they need their minimum wage jobs.
lol dude you're working on a ****ing nuclear reactor or some **** for the navy. You better not be saying stuff like that in real life. *** I love you.
Hey, someones gotta keep the boats afloat to keep hurling missiles at little achmed.
that ****er is shady
What's this, then? LoS is joining the army or some ****? What in the hell happened in the month I've been gone?
Or did I just horribly miss something?
@ KoH: http://vgchat.com/showthread.php?t=23152
[quote=Lord of Spam;586512]It pains me to know that I will shortly be defending the freedom of speech of idiots like you.
Don't want to derail the thread or anything, but is that what you're actually going to do?
In his mind, yes. His job is the most important the Navy can give.
Min. wage in CA is $7.50 an hour, and will be $8.25 by 2008. The prices throughout my city have not changed (with the exception of gas prices, but they have fluctuated for the past twenty years, how is now any different?) due to wage increases for any products, including at the restaurant where I work where over 30 people work at minimum wage. I'm getting paid $7.50 an hour and that Grand Slam is still $4.99. Juan behind the counter at McDonald's is now being paid $7.50 an hour and your Big Mac is still $5.49. Chad in his mom's Ford Escort is now being paid $7.50 an hour and your large supreme pizza with hand-tossed crust is still $17.99. Betsy greeting you at Wal-Mart is now being paid $7.50 an hour and you can still get the same crap at the same price.
minimum wage needs increases but, in most cases people making just over DO get screwed. Where I work, the woman in the office that does nothing but answer phones and get her nails done is getting a pay increase. We also have a kid out here in the garage that does our gopher work. This kid works his tail off for $8.00 an hour, now the lazy *** receptionist that complains when she ahs to get up and tell us we have a phone call will make .50 an hour less than the kid. He is working through college to better himself and she is just happy being lazy. it's just not fair to reward lackluster work.
But, you also got the cases where it works. It's really just a matter of how your boss handles his employees. If you want a well ran business you need to keep employees happy. Letting crappy workers get as much as good help is wrong and it's what is happening around here in So Ill more and more. Granted it doesn't effect me, but, the increase was needed. It's just up to the business owners them selves to make it work smoothly.
[quote=Random;587896]Sure, teenagers who are in school. Thats what the local grocery store has done. Hired all high school kids for the afternoon shifts, and in the morning they have mostly senior citizens with the exception of a few bag boys who failed life and didn't pass high school.
Haha, that's total bull****. The only teenagers I see working in grocery stores simply bag groceries. Every other employee there, doing whatever job, is past the college age. Very few young high-schoolers work in fast food restaurants because they can't cook and are too young to be cashiers. The only job left is cleaning bathrooms, and I don't know a single teenager desperate enough for a job to do that. Besides people with close ties into businesses, there's really no other occupations widely open to youths.
[quote]Its unfair to harm anyone who is trying to achieve anything in life. And KoH is right, why reward failure?
So now minimum wage workers are failures? Haha, don't lump them in with you, dear. If some one's life depends on a high paying job, it's either their fault or the business's fault for being incompetent if they're harmed in the process of raising minimum wage.
[quote]If you don't like what your getting paid, tough ****. Get a better job. If you failed high school because you obviously lack intelligence, get a GED or go back to school. Theres so many options in life. You don't have to suck at life.
Haha, this is the most narrow-minded post I've read in months. College is not this magical establishment where you can learn everything in life for free in a matter of weeks. It's not as simple as you think to get a higher paying job at any given time if you don't yet reach the qualifications. Hopefully you wouldn't realized that before *****ing about how you're getting the short end of the stick and not getting paid as much as you should due to minimum wage.
[quote]And I even agree there should have been a raise but not as much as it was. 50 cents would have been great. But 2 dollars is a tad bit much for our economy.
Until you've proven that you've taken at least a semester of basic economics, please don't try informing anyone the capabilities of America's economy.
[quote]And Skitz, I understand what you mean with some prices staying the same. For example the dollar menu at McDonalds. But the size of the Double Cheeseburger has decreased again. So for them to fight prices, they simply lower the standards of the burger. Why not? Everyone needs to make money.
Haha, oh***you'resofullof****. You honestly think that if they didn't raise prices, they must've changed the quality of nasty, greasy, fast food? You're a riot. Seriously, where do you get this from?
[quote]Good, while your at it, allow people to say "FAG" without getting in deep ****. I mean who cares? People honestly take things too seriously. Freedom of speech right? So why can't I call someone a fag and get away with it?
Curse words aren't banned from the public...
I dont know how your local Mcy D's is but the one here in my town has absolutley nothing but high school kids and seniors, with the exception of the managers. However, I do agree with the college thing, everyone thinks you go to college and poof!!! Your a millionaire! I work in a custom fab and paint shop and I can tell you, not a **** one of us went to college.(I'm in the process but thats besides the point) You gotta have a lot more than a quality education.
Congratulations, Random. You are just as thickskulled and stubborn as kodachi and iris.
diaf
... Randoms a woman now?
Crap, that was a disagreement on random, but, whatever. At least I'm a noob and my rep power means nothing.
Eastmost peninsula is the secret.
I think you missed half my post. And, spoilers, a lot of people do work two jobs yet it's still amazingly difficult to support a family and pay for bills. This increase isn't giving people more money, it's just letting them keep up with inflation and various other things. So if they had trouble with two jobs before, it would be even more difficult.
The false assumption here is that 100% of a wage increase is going to be transmitted straight into price rises. Which isn't the case, because minimum wage is only a smallish fraction of the costs of production in the economy, and competition ensures that the extent of price rises are limited. Even if say 30% of the cost gets transmitted into price rises, that's still 1) not very much and 2) making the minimum wage earners better off.
All Random's got is this whole fear/hatred thing that comes out as "f*ck the morlocks".
My theory is: If a person deserved more than minimum wage for what they did, they would get it.
If a person weren't qualified for a job that paid higher than minimum wage, they obviously ****ed up somewhere in the course of their life.
Why should the money that was meant to go to someone who actually works hard and is more qualified to do a more difficult job instead go to some highschool dropout flipping hamburgers?
There are some bosses out there who can no longer afford to give their more valuable employees raises for doing a job well-done because of the new minimum wage. That money that's meant to go to the guy who spent 4 years of his life in college and has kids and a wife isn't getting the pay raise he deserves because some punk who didn't want to take life seriously as a kid is getting a pay-raise for being a waste of space who does the bare minimum.
No matter what any of you argue, the fact is that if the people who work for minimum wage actually deserved this pay raise without the government forcing it on company administration, they would have gotten it if they had asked for it.
If any of you can argue that point, I'd be honestly interested in reading what you have to say. Assuming it's not a pile of steaming **** that I must sift through in order to see some semblance of a valid argument.
Why do you and Random keep assuming that people can just go 'Oh well, guess I'll just go to college!'? It isn't so ****ing easy when you've lived a life in poverty. The majority of people on minimum wage can't afford to better their situation, and/or perhaps are comfortable where they are. Not everyone can pay for college and magically come out at the end with a well-paying job. Not every kid who drops out of high school is an idiot or failure. Hell, a kid I used to play with when I was a kid ended up dropping out because his mom became a full time alcoholic and he had no choice but to stay home every day and make sure she didn't kill herself. Hardly ****ing up, as you describe it.
And how many times do we have to repeat it? The minimum wage increases are in line with inflation.
[quote=The X;588859]Why do you and Random keep assuming that people can just go 'Oh well, guess I'll just go to college!'? It isn't so ****ing easy when you've lived a life in poverty. The majority of people on minimum wage can't afford to better their situation, and/or perhaps are comfortable where they are. Not everyone can pay for college and magically come out at the end with a well-paying job. Not every kid who drops out of high school is an idiot or failure. Hell, a kid I used to play with when I was a kid ended up dropping out because his mom became a full time alcoholic and he had no choice but to stay home every day and make sure she didn't kill herself. Hardly ****ing up, as you describe it.
And how many times do we have to repeat it? The minimum wage increases are in line with inflation.
I never said that everyone could or should go to college, moron. I don't even go to college. Is this your way of giving me an intelligent argument? Your post gives me exactly what I specifically said I didn't want. A pile of **** that you expect me to sift through in order to find a valid point.
Instead of responding with some barely intelligent response, you instead lept to a conclusion that you pulled out of an assumption from my post and went off on a very stupid and pointless rant about.
I don't go to nor do I plan on going to college anytime soon, and yet I work for $14.12 an hour. All I have to go on is work experience and a basic High School education. Don't give me that bull**** excuse that some people are just helpless. I'm living proof that you can get the **** back up and make something of your life despite your circumstance.
If you want proof, go ahead, try me. I just spent the last month and a half sleeping at some friends' houses, dorms, my brother's apartment, and my ****ing car with as little as 80 dollars and the kindness of people's hearts to feed me. A few weeks after being thrown out of my house, I found a job for $13 an hour. About a month after working at that job, I found an apartment which I am living in now and paid the deposit from the money I saved at that job with a little financial help from friends (debts which have already been paid off).
I lived that so-called life which you describe where I didn't have **** and built up from that. You don't have a single ****ing clue what you're talking about when you speak of this subject, so if anyone is to 'shut the **** up,' it should be you.
The fact is, people make their own choices in life. People are fully capable of improving their situation, no matter how bad it may be. The simple truth that you and so many deny is that they don't want to by themselves so they convince themselves that other people should be responsible for their actions (or lack thereof) and help THEM better THEIR situation without doing **** themselves.
And btw, now I work at Comcast for $14.12. Over a dollar pay raise.
If you really think I'll buy into your bull**** where everyone who works for minimum wage is a helpless pussy, you're dead ****ing wrong. Don't reply back to any of my ******* posts without thinking twice, dumbass.
PS: That example of a kid who dropped out of highschool to ensure that his alcoholic mother didn't kill herself is one of the worst possible examples I've ever heard given in ANY possible argument.
tl;dr
We still need people to work minimum wage jobs, though.
It sure is a good thing you replied, then.
Shortened version:
I got kicked out of my house a month and a half ago.
I had 80 dollars.
In a month and a half I got a job paying $14.12 and my own apartment.
Don't give me that bull**** that people are helpless and can't improve their situation. I don't nor do I plan to go to college anytime soon yet I was able to vastly improve my situation with very little work experience and a high school education.
If you want to bull****, try harder.
[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;588926]Spoilers: they're still getting minimum wage as in the lowest a person can actually be paid. Seriously, stop being an idiot. These people need that money. To say they all "****ed up" and now don't deserve anything more is complete bull****. If you honestly believe in your view, I think you need to grow up a bit.
It sure is a good thing that you classify anyone who speaks their opinion that doesn't agree with yours as "idiots." I always assumed that people were idiots or stupid when they stated something as fact, but actually wasn't. Oh well, silly me.
I'm not arguing the definition of minimum wage... nor am I certainly not arguing whether or not people need money. Your stating these two obvious facts, I assume, is more for your benefit to try and understand the situation than for any other reason. I didn't say they "all ****ed up." I said, and I quote:
[quote=KoH]If a person weren't qualified for a job that paid higher than minimum wage, they obviously ****ed up somewhere in the course of their life.
I really don't see that as saying 'if you get paid minimum wage, you really ****ed up your life!' If you see it as that, perhaps responding to anything I say now, or in the future, isn't the wisest move.
My view is that people are responsible for their lives, unless they suffer from some genuine handicap, obviously. If you disagree with that, well I'm not going to call you an idiot, but I can honestly say that my view of your intelligence will certainly go down. :)
How is that not the same ****ing thing? You're saying it's their fault they didn't meet the qualifications of higher paying jobs even though there's more important circumstances in their life which can come in the way of that. Does that mean they don't deserve to be paid enough to live on because money and their work isn't the most important things in their life?
Yes, people are responsible for their own lives, but if you think they never have to be responsible for the lives of other, then you really need to grow up a bit. People aren't always ruled by work so that's not always their priority, but even if it's not they do need the money to live, and it's not their fault for not being emotionless, full-time workers.
Frankly, I can't imagine anyone sincerely concerned about your view on their intelligence.
Jesus, together, you ****ers write longer than I do. Keep refreshing the page to see when this post gets updated with responses!
Double post. My bad. =(
[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;588948]I'm calling you an idiot because you honestly seem to believe that if you're in the situation where you can only get a minimum wage job, you don't deserve even the slightest increase in wage, even if they haven't gotten an increase in years all the while prices have been inflating.
And the situation I was in which was almost identical to most minimum wage workers out there proves that I should have instead given up, gotten a ****ty job flipping hamburgers, and... what? Just lived life and joined forces with you people who think life's not worth more than minimum wage?
[quote=Vampiro]You're quote says "they obviously ****ed up." I said "they all ****ed up." I don't see a huge difference between the two. Either way, you're saying they ****ed up and now don't qualify for anything higher than minimum wage prior to the increase.
... I do. Your quote classifies everyone, that is without exception, mine classifies a certain aforementioned group of people.
[quote=Vampiro] People obviously are responsible for their lives, why would I disagree with that? But does that mean they should constantly be beat down and not even be able to afford the very basics of life? Uh, no. They should still have some hope, and that would be even more difficult to come by without some sort of increase. Keep in mind, most of these people have a family to take care of, so every little cent they make is actually quite a big deal. There's no reason to keep someone down because they made a mistake early in their life, and it's not like it's ****ing over anyone else. If you make twenty dollars an hour, good for you, but in no way is it harming you or making your job or wage any less. It's just giving people a better chance to survive.
They can afford the basics of life pending on what they see as being the 'basics' of their specific life. For me, I saw the basics of living my life as having high speed internet, a good job, TV, an apartment, etc. And that's just the basics of my life at 18. There are people out there fully prepared to accept a life even less than the one I live at the age of 45 because they don't want a job that pays higher than minimum wage.
[quote=Lunairetic;588953][COLOR=black]
Jesus Christ KoH, triple negative. That actually hurt to read.
On a serious note though, my only conflict with what you said above is this: Sometimes there are situations in which a person may need to make ends meet immediately. In these situations, education and work ethic don't have the time to filter into the mix. Besides that, education and work ethic are sometimes nullified because of surroundings. Its been shown quite a few times that absolute poverty can overwhelm even those that aren't "stupid" or "sub-par intelligent", I'm talking college educated, PhD scholars (These scholars placed themselves into impoverished positions and still failed to make ends meet, 2/3 times.). In this period of time, the people in question can fail because the wages aren't sufficient, even when working two jobs. So it's not so much the fact that they aren't worthy of a raise or don't have the ethic to increase, but sometimes circumstances don't permit progression. Whether time be a factor, or simply absolute poverty's gravity effect, these are the people minimum wage is meant to support - at least that's my perception on it.[/COLOR]
No, I definitely agree with you. Education and work ethic do not always mix. This is absolutely true. I would have taken a minimum wage job myself had I not found a higher paying job almost immediately. I'm not arguing whether or not minimum wage helps people, that's an incredibly stupid argument. It most obviously does, even to the most right-winged fanboy. I'm arguing if it's right to increase it while even taking into consideration that there really ARE people out there who drop out of high school because they think that they can survive off minimum wage. That and a plethora of other problems in society, mixed with the more common characteristic of laziness in today's generation is reason enough for me to take a stand and point out the obvious flaws in raising minimum wage.
Along with the fact that employers must neglect harder working individuals and their deserved pay raises in order to keep up with minimum wage.
[quote=Iris;588955]How is that not the same ****ing thing? You're saying it's their fault they didn't meet the qualifications of higher paying jobs even though there's more important circumstances in their life which can come in the way of that. Does that mean they don't deserve to be paid enough to live on because money and their work isn't the most important things in their life?
Yes, people are responsible for their own lives, but if you think they never have to be responsible for the lives of other, then you really need to grow up a bit. People aren't always ruled by work so that's not always their priority, but even if it's not they do need the money to live, and it's not their fault for not being emotionless, full-time workers.
Frankly, I can't imagine anyone sincerely concerned about your view on their intelligence.
I really don't want to even respond to your load of bull****. You can't do anything except try and bring up what other's have already said.
Frankly, I've always thought and still think that 99% of what you say is worthless garbage.
It's not a question of whether or not I think what you believe in is garbage, I have the highest respect for peoples' beliefs and convictions. It's just that I think, as a person, you're just stupid.
Also, I'm glad you can't see anyone concerned about my view "on their intelligence." Whatever the **** that means.
Actually, to be very honest with you, I don't believe anyone in their right mind settles for minimum wage. I chalk that up to fatalism, which is directly associated with upbringing and the culture around them... which in of itself is an entirely different beast. But I see what you're getting at, more clearly, now.
[quote=KoH;588985]I really don't want to even respond to your load of bull****. You can't do anything except try and bring up what other's have already said.
Most of what I said was completely original to the thread, actually, but if you want to be a hypocrite and say my stuff isn't worth reading because it's the same as what's been said, then I'll have to stop reading your posts as well. You seem to be regurgitating a lot of stuff Random said as well, which has already been covered, but I'm sure it's totally revamped now that you said it.
For ****'s sake, if you're not going to take the time and be mature enough to read a valid post then I don't see why anyone could take you seriously. Oh wait, they don't.
[quote]Frankly, I've always thought and still think that 99% of what you say is worthless garbage.
Haha, sure thing sport. Sure you have.
[quote]It's not a question of whether or not I think what you believe in is garbage, I have the highest respect for peoples' beliefs and convictions. It's just that I think, as a person, you're just stupid.
This hardly merits a response. Honestly, I'm offended that some one as juvenile as you could consider me stupid. Then again, you've demonstrated time and time again in this thread that your opinion is worthless.
[quote]Also, I'm glad you can't see anyone concerned about my view "on their intelligence." Whatever the **** that means.
Basic english, dear. I certainly hope you can comprehend it, or else you're posting in the wrong board.
It's not as fun to multi-quote dumb posts. It'd be more fun if you could actually respond with a worthy rebuttal rather than petty name-calling.
[quote=Lunairetic;589006][COLOR=black]Actually, to be very honest with you, I don't believe anyone in their right mind settles for minimum wage. I chalk that up to fatalism, which is directly associated with upbringing and the culture around them... which in of itself is an entirely different beast. But I see what you're getting at, more clearly, now.[/COLOR]
Move to California. You'll see how big of an issue this is.
[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;589010]Or right, I forgot you're a single-mom or a father trying to take care of his wife and kids. You're eighteen, dude. That's a lot different than being over thirty. There's no comparison and you can't use yourself as any sort of example. You may have been living on your own, or whatever else, but it's far from being identical.
Being 30 means that getting a higher paying job should be easier. Unless you've been living in your mom's basement for those 30 years, you should have some work experience or taken a class of some sort. When I told people I didn't want to do college, ALL I ever heard from them was that I needed a degree to make it in the world. I'm proving them wrong. Now all I hear from people is how much harder it is when I'm 30 or some bull****, even though 30 year olds are far more trust worthy than any other age group I can think of and should have a very good amount of work experience behind them.
[quote]Okay, your quote says "If a person weren't qualified for a job that paid higher than minimum wage, they obviously ****ed up somewhere in the course of their life." That's everyone who doesn't qualify for wage higher than minimum. "If you don't qualify, you ****ed up" as opposed to my "they all ****ed up." Where exactly is the difference? We're both talking about the exact same group. I'm saying all within that group of people, you're saying all all within that group of people. What?You didn't get my point. My point was that everyone, with work, can qualify for higher than minimum wage.
[quote]Internet of any kind, or even a computer, cable, and anything else similar is a luxury. I'm talking about what a family needs to survive and be protected, how the internet factors into that I'm not quite sure. Which just goes to further distance yourself as any sort of example. Food, clothing and shelter, none in excess is what I'd call a basic, and even that's difficult to cope with these days if you're on a minimum wage job.I realize that those things are luxuries. Again, you missed my point. My point was that I shoot higher than others. I thought of things I really wanted in my life and I achieved that goal. It's not that hard to do. Someone who barely speaks English can, at my old job, get an entry-level job for $10 sorting out mail. If you illegally passed the border, you can stand by the local BART (train) station and wait for people to offer you 'under the table' physical jobs that pay much more than minimum wage. But illigal immigration is another topic.
[quote]Also, that last line pretty much shows your ignorance in this topic. You can be happy at a minimum wage job, as I've said, but it's not that a lot of them don't want a better job, it's that they can't get a better job. The reasons for this are nearly endless. It's also not as if they aren't trying, no one is completely happy living a mediocre life and just scraping by month after month. There's a lot of people who are desperately trying to get an education of some sort or even skills that are useful within the workforce, because most don't have the required skills. They don't know how to use a computer, they don't know how to make a resume, they don't know how to deal with people or the pressures of a career. And that first line of your paragraph here shows how ignorant you are. You're saying that people The idea that people can't get a better job is the oldest and possibly the most used excuse for minimum wage workers. It's also the most bull****.
Saying that means that these people are basically dead. Condemned to a life that will add up to nothing. That they cannot be saved, not even by themselves. I don't and can not believe this. We are talking about people who are physically capable, however. I think this is why you said what you said. You're taking into consideration senior citizens who require a cane to get around or can't remember who their own grand children are. I'm not taking into consideration these people. Sadly for them, their lives are harder to save than others, and not without hand-outs or help. But I speak of everyone from 16-40. Even 40 year olds are capable of learning.
There's another thing I think we are either getting confused about or just neglecting to mention: I'm not saying that these people can just get up one day and turn their life around and move into a penthouse that same day. But let's face it, if you think minimum wage can do that then you'd be just as ignorant as I would be if I were to claim the above (that people can turn their lives around in a day). Truth is, people can change their life but it takes hard work, dedication, and time. The reason most don't aim higher is because of those 3 things that a better life requires to achieve. If you're saying that people are incapable of hard work, dedication, and time, then that's saying that they're basically dead.
[quote]I mentioned my mom's job before, because it's a great example of this topic. Her business runs a course that teaches people all of these skills, and the course is constantly full. It includes the handicapped of every type all the way up to, as a couple real examples, a lawyer who couldn't continue his firm and lost everything and a man with a masters degree from Western University. Both were, at the time, now forced to work minimum wage jobs because they couldn't get anything else. However, most of these people that do graduate get hired right after the course and get a much better salary, but it takes a lot of time and demands a lot from the participants. Many people just don't have the time or the capacity to handle it. It's really not that black and white as you make it out to be.That's a good company your mom runs. And I'm being entirely serious.
Look, you just basically proved my point. Minimum wage jobs are good for people during a transition or people who are just comfortable in that lifestyle. I am not arguing whether we even need minimum wage workers, because we really do.
What I'm saying, if anything, promotes what your mom's doing.
Hypothetical situation: If someone were to be working for a year at a minimum wage job, then at the end of that year think that they've had enough of working for the bare minimum and they wanted to do more with their life. So they go out looking for a job, but before they find one the minimum wage gets increased. Then they think that they don't have to work harder or find a new job because the minimum wage got increased, thus increasing their income. They no longer have motivation to get a better job, to seek an education, or to improve their life.
Instead of going to a company like your mom's, this guy just sticks with his minimum wage job a few more years until the min. wage gets raised yet again, thus wasting his life. Had he realized that minimum wage would never be enough for him, he could have gone to your mom, realized that he's worth more, and gotten far more out of life than you could ever at a min. wage job.
I realize that you all think it's the right thing to help out 'the little guy' and increase minimum wage. It's a noble sentiment and no doubt it would help out thousands of people. However, it is my belief that people should be taught how to help themselves instead of being given fish everyday. (If you get my reference, try and argue with that story.)
[quote=Iris;589013]More bull****.
[img]http://www.crestock.com/images/contest2007/3221-2-IMG_1724.JPG[/img]
You know, you really frighten me?
For the record: I just type quickly. So in comparison to the average 35 wpm typist, I can take the same amount of time but write twice to three times as much.
fuuuck that's a lot to read...
Psh, you should try reading 3 peoples' posts and replying to them. It's like 3 mini-bosses at the same time.
Or more accurately, like trying to use Doc Oc's tentacles (minus 1, because he had 4) to fend off 3 different enemies' attacks.
Jesus, I am a freak.
Location: California, Bay Area.
KOH, the problem here is that you're using a moralistic term to make an economic argument. You said if people "deserved" more money they'd get it, but they don't because they're stupid, or fu*kups, or whatever.
But you have to define "deserve" because otherwise you're just assuming the market perfectly rewards effort, which it doesn't. The market is actually pretty terrible, by itself, at allocating "fair" reward for work. Mothers work really really hard and don't get paid at all, while athletes and sports starts get paid out of all proportion to what they actually do. How the market rewards people for their work has nothing to do with their worth as a person, and everything to do with their power to negotiate and bargain.
Just as actors and sportspeople can demand ridiculous pay, and skilled mining engineers can get hundreds of thousands of dollars because they're willing to use their skills and go work somewhere sh*tty, unskilled labour has very little value because the people who do it have no power to demand better conditions (because there's always someone else to do it). All the people hiring them needs are bodies, for the most part. That's why in a civilised society, one that doesn't want people to be virtually slaves, or left to starve on the streets, we intervene with minimum wages and stuff to ensure the people who undertake this labor (and there's ALWAYS such people and jobs, see below) get a decent support to make up for what the raw market fails to do.
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The other fallacy is the whole "the plural of anecdote is not data" thing. You say you got a decent-paying job and that's fair enough. But you're implying, then, that everyone can and should do what you did, which is impossible, not everyone can do that. This isn't even a moral argument about the ravages of poverty, because heart-rending stories about how poverty isnt always somebody's fault makes the same mistake of assuming that individual morality or culpability matters here... and concedes that "how somebody got poor" actually matters to policy formation.
No, it's pure statistics. There's going to be a certain number of Horatio Algers, but not everyone can be one. There's no point looking just at the individual, which is what people are over-focussing on. You have to look at the total structure in which individuals all exist--and it's a structure which demands that there be sizable numbers of unskilled workers to do menial stuff. The individual moral uprightness or ambition or whatever of the people doesn't matter a jot, what matters is that statistically, there's going to be some portion of the populace who's in very low paying jobs, and if you don't have a defined floor for conditions, they're going to be f*cked and exploited. We set policy based on statistical outcomes, not on making moral judgements about people and punishing them for their lack of negotiating power.
Minimum wages, decent working conditions and a basic welfare system work. They promote a more civilised society and they stop people from starving in the streets or working themselves to death. That's why people fought tooth and nail for these minimum conditions in the first place. People need to learn their labour history a bit better.
Arwon: This is a decision that affects everyone in America. America consists of both moral and economically minded men and women, although finding both in the same person isn't as common as it once was. However, what is very common is bringing moral principles into a logical debate. If you were to argue the death penalty or euthanasia, you would undoubtedly have to bring up moral values.
As purely an economical debate, raising minimum wage has pros and cons, as almost every single thing in this universe. The thing that we judge and therefore make decisions upon is which outweighs the other. To bring up moral obligations or convictions into this figurative 'scale' shouldn't be neglected nor looked down upon. Everything in this country was founded on peoples' beliefs and moral convictions, why not this? It isn't even a moral conviction for me, to be honest, this is more of a logical decision than anything else.
The question I ask is: Who deserves more? A man who spent 4 years in college with a wife and kids (yes, the same example) or some highschool dropout who spent the last 13 years of his life working the same minimum wage job and is perfectly comfortable living that lifestyle?
We each may have personal reasons for choosing either way, and that's fine. We all can't have the same life nor the same opinion, which is one of the few things I love about people. However, I'm simply saying my opinion that raising minimum wage promotes a lifestyle that many, not all, minimum wage employees have been living for years and are perfectly happy in instead of doing more with their life.
Yeah, I suppose this is a bit of a moral vendetta for me, now that I think of it. Wasting a person's life is something I feel very strongly against, and it really annoys the **** out of me when I see my friends working for minimum wage while still living with their parents at the ages of 18, 19, 20, and even older. So much potential is being wasted and I'm tired of seeing it.
I agree, in theory, that an excessively high minimum wage may well have that disincentive effect (there's a word that can be deployed both as a moral economic term...), but I highly question whether the United States' comparitively low minimum wage is anywhere near that level.
I think there's a big danger here of confusing cause with effect. Ignoring the question of whether people can get stuck in minimum wage jobs through circumstances beyond their control (which they can), let's just focus on this group that could, hypothetically, "do better." That is, are such people stuck in minimum wage jobs because they're discouraged by other things, or are they discouraged by the ability to subsist on minimum wage instead?
I'd argue quite strongly that it's the first one, for several reasons. Firstly, they suck. I've done my tour-of-duty working at a supermarket, I'm still working in a cash-under-the-table job that pays below minimum wage. It's not a long term plan for happiness or fulfilment. Second, I'd think this would be even more the case in a system like America's, with minimal health-care that isn't tied to jobs, very little in the way of concretely protected workers' rights, and a wage floor so low it barely covers survival costs in many parts of the country. Third, some people just don't particularly *want* status and money. It's a narrow definition of success and worth that defines people solely by who they sell their time to in exchange for money and how much they get for it.
[quote]The question I ask is: Who deserves more? A man who spent 4 years in college with a wife and kids (yes, the same example) or some highschool dropout who spent the last 13 years of his life working the same minimum wage job and is perfectly comfortable living that lifestyle?
Deserves more what? I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy. I've already gone through how bad the market is at determining "worth" and "fairness" and I think that holds here. What criteria are using here that isn't completely arbitrary? how can you be sure the college guy "worked harder" than the guy on minimum wage? A lot of minimum wage jobs are hard, and a lot of college people and college graduates are, to put it mildly, f*cking arseholes who never had to work for anything. This still seems like it's confusing "rich" with "good."
Even if we assume "a civilised existance being possible for everyone" isn't a worthwhile moral aim, I don't think you can fairly weigh somebody's ability to subsist and live decently, against some college graduate having to pay a few cents more due to labor costs rising with other costs.
Finally, I'd ask. Why do minimum wage jobs HAVE to be such oppressive drudgery? When did this become an assumed reality? Why is it so natural and right that the system seems to sustain itself on grinding about 20% of its populace into the ground so that the rest can have nicer things for cheaper?
Just to clarify: I think politicians shouldn't set minimum wages or employment conditions, because otherwise it's hostage to politics, it jumps randomly and in big bursts and that isn't ideal. It's much better to have a separate body, set up with a clear charter like the Federal Reserve, whose sole job is to keep the wage-floor tied roughly to living costs, and to help enforce basic workers' rights.
[quote=Vampiro V. Empire;589164]I would've given up a page and a half ago.
If I gave up that easily I'd still be living from my car. :(
Arwon: There's actually nothing I can disagree with in what you said. The only possible thing I can say that comes close to a disagreement is what would be considered 'too much' minimum wage. However, that isn't a topic a person could really debate. People who work minimum wages live in both rich and poor parts of the US (although they generally live in poor parts), have different lifestyles, etc.. I do know for a fact, however, that people were able to survive off minimum wage before it was raised. Their living conditions, obviously, were not the best, but this again brings up my point that if they wanted things to improve, they shouldn't look for help from the government.
Alas, this is just my opinion. It's pretty clear we all don't think the same.
Oh, and btw, yeah, quite a few college kids are generally spoiled little brats who will never understand the hard work required of most minimum wage jobs. However, the money spent to get them that education does deserve recognition. That money had to be earned one way or another, either by their parents or otherwise. It's true though, most minimum wage employees have generally a hard life, not born into a rich world, etc., but I'm still convinced that they could improve the way they live one way or another.
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