Are the terrorists winning?




Posted by Fei-on Castor

What is their goal? How do they achieve that?

Well, I think their goal is to make us live as they do. And I think they achieve that by scaring us into thinking that if we don't, they'll fly planes into our buildings.

So they attack us and the UK and we know they really mean business. So we better up our security to stop them. We better search people like crazy. We better listen in on phone calls. We better make it a hassle to fly on an airplane.

And now that they've been using shampoo bottles to sneak on explosives, we better not allow people to carry on bottles of liquid. I'm not saying this has happened yet, but I'm sure we're getting there.

Here we are in America, becoming overbearing. Becoming more and more like them. I'll bet it was a hassle to fly in Afghanistan when it was controlled by the Taliban.

It seems to me that slowly, our freedoms are being taken away for the sake of security. Is it worth it? Where do you draw the line? If we outlaw bottles of liquid on planes, they'll find something else, I guarantee it. And then we'll take that away, too. So we just wait for them to find a new way to scare us, then take that away from all Americans, over and over until we are like them.

Has anyone else noticed this trend?




Posted by Bebop

I can see what you mean but I think you make it sound like eventually we'll be living in seperate bubbles out of fear. Some things have become ever so inconvient, like not being able to take liquids on a plane, for the sake of secuity but then again some things set up I think are defiantely for the better such as limited access to the cockpit.




Posted by mis0


Quoting Fei-on Castor: What is their goal? How do they achieve that?

Yeah, they are winning in regards to the United States, most certainly. They've made our nation change things out of fear, and in turn, these changes have given rise to fear among the general population (oh noes gatorade will kill us all) and they've removed liberties in the name of "protecting our freedom" and "security" not to mention outrightly defying and/or breaking both national and international law. These happenings mean that we've essentially lost. We've changed in a major way from proud, freedom embracing citzens of one of the worlds most powerful and prosperous nations to lowly cowards who invite to prying eyes of the government rather than face our fear.

People who say freedoms must be traded for security aren't just cowards, they hate the ideals of this country. Given a smarter leader and cabinent of higher authority, we could have not only have beat down a great deal of the danger both here and abroad, but essentially we could have prevented it. Not only have we suffered catastrophic attacks, but the world is now an instable nightmare, and interestingly, much less "safe".



Posted by Bebop

I think theres much more impiortant liberties than being able to take liquid onto a plane though. Personally I just take my Game Boy. But even those that do want to, like mothers, can have thier liquids cleared. I just see it as an inconvienence if anything.




Posted by Fei-on Castor

It's like, whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death!"?




Posted by GameMiestro

[quote=Fei-on Castor]It's like, whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death!"?

It turns out that government philosophy is a very flexible document.




Posted by Bj Blaskowitz

hardly. My day to day hasn't changed.




Posted by Bebop

Actually I'm a bit more worried about going to London. I know theres a higher chance of being eaten by an elephant than dying at the hand sof Al Quida (probably) but I guess I could make sure there no muslims before I get on the train ;-*




Posted by Fei-on Castor

My personal day to day life has not changed. But I'd bet that guys who have to fly a lot are much more hassled than they were before, especially if your name just happens to be Haji or something. I have a friend whose name actually is Haji, and he flies to San Francisco to visit his family, a few times a year. Everytime he does, he has to take his shoes off and unpack his carry on bag. I mean, I guess you could say that it's a small price to pay for not being on a plane that gets flown into a building, but I don't think so. I think it's a huge price to pay, especially given our nation's belief in freedom. When it comes down to it, all the security measures in the world aren't gonna prevent them from doing their stupid sh*t to us, whether it's on a plane or any place else. They get into these things to die, so we really aren't left with many options. We can take away bottles of liquid. They'll pack the sh*t up their a*ses if they have to, so long as they can do what they came to do. So then what? Everyone who wants to fly has to undergo a cavity search before boarding? Or just the suspicious ones? Guys like Haji. Big fat jolly black guys like Haji, who don't look arab or anything like it. How do you determine who is suspicious enough to be humiliated and hassled in public?

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, everyday we give up a little bit of our freedom in exchange for protection from stupid extremist terrorist as*holes.

***, is anyone else reminded of Star Wars with this situation? "The Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society!" Everytime I talk about this subject, I think of that speech. Followed by Natalie Portman's terrible acting.




Posted by Aioros


Quoting Fei-on Castor: It's like, whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death!"?

[COLOR="Yellow"]Exactly, were Americans da[COLOR="Yellow"]m[/COLOR]mit! Give us liberty or give us death! At least that's the kind of spirit we should have.

Events like 9/11 were tragic and very unfortunate, but the fact is we're safer in this country than we've ever been and chances of another major terrorist attack aren't as high as the Government wants you to believe.[/COLOR]



Posted by Arwon

Well the IRA has renounced terrorism, but I suppose they achieved most of their goals?




Posted by Fei-on Castor


Quoting Arwon: Well the IRA has renounced terrorism, but I suppose they achieved most of their goals?

But you mustn't forget that the IRA also smear feces on the walls of the cells in which they were held, as a form of protest. So, there's that.

If their goal is to take away our freedom and make our society oppresive and controlling like theirs, I feel that they are making big strides toward that goal.

The biggest way to fight terrorism is to not let it interrupt your life. They feel that they can scare us into doing things there way, with threats of death and tragedy if we refuse. But we really ought to show some pride and realize that societies where the people are free tend to be dangerous, due to said freedom. The safe places are the ones where no one can do anything without notifying someone, therefore, no one gets an opportunity to break the law without getting caught. Part of having our freedoms in this country is the presence of others who will abuse them, such as terrorists.

I'd probably feel differently about the new safety measures if I was personally affected by 9/11. I didn't know anyone there who died, and I live on the other side of the country, so it didn't hit me as hard as it hit those in NYC and the surrounding areas. However, I think that emotion tends to skew perception, so it's difficult to say who is right or wrong. It just seems to me that we are bending to their demands, little by little.



Posted by Bj Blaskowitz

I'm pretty sure the overall goal of terrorists is the victory of Islam




Posted by Fei-on Castor


Quoting Bj Blaskowitz: I'm pretty sure the overall goal of terrorists is the victory of Islam

Absolutely. It is by fear that a terrorist tries to achieve this goal. They scare others into doing things their way. I'd bet that in an extremist Muslim country, like the Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, flying on a plane was a huge hassle. They probably knew exactly what you brought on with you and all that other stuff.

Our airports have always been fairly secure, and safe enough for me. But now, in the name of foiling terrorist threats, we make it a huge hassle, much like what I'd imagine an airport in Kabul was like a few years ago.

I'm just saying, BJ, where do you draw the line? I think we all agree that bringing firearms or explosives on a plane is unnecessary, for many reasons. But what if someone hides something in their shoes, or their carry-on luggage? Is it acceptable to ask a person to unpack all of their carry-on luggage in the terminal, just to verify that you're not sneaking anything onto the plane? Maybe that's okay. Perhaps that's not too much to ask. So then, to bypass this, terrorists begin hiding explosive liquid in shampoo bottles. Now what? Are we going to make it illegal to bring any bottles of liquid on the plane? Are we going to start checking water bottles to make sure they're not actually full of explosives?

So maybe we just ban bottles of ANYTHING from being brought on board with you. Then what? These terrorists will always find a way to get that stuff to go where they want it, no matter how much we tighten up security. At what point do you decide that freedom is worth the risk involved?



Posted by Random


Quoting Bj Blaskowitz: I'm pretty sure the overall goal of terrorists is the victory of Islam


WRONG.. WRONG WRONG.. You make people make Terrorists sound to be all Muslim when thats not true. What about the Oklahoma City bomber? A true terrorist in his time and yet hes a christian. You can't say that about any religion. My dad for one is a Muslim and I know he'd never in his life dream of doing anything terroristic. The man who slayed those amish children in Pennsylvania is another example of a Terrorist who is'nt muslim.

The War on Terrorism isn't just fought in the middle east, its fought here. The media makes terrorists to sound like ****ed off muslims. But are really all those people terrorists? If we were defending our nation from attack, does that make us terrorists? Hell no..

Terrorists want to strike fear in our hearts. That is what they're trying to achieve. They want to kill as many people as possible and strike fear into our hearts. Theres many terrorists in Iraq killing other Muslim men/women/children, its hard to say that Terrorists are there to make sure Islam is victorious over all other religions. You simply can't say that..



Posted by Boner

I didn't bother to read any of the posts in this thread. I have only one thing to say about this whole war on terror situation w/o getting into some pointless, heated debate about it. NOBODY IS WINNING! And you don't have to sit and analyze every angle to figure that one out.




Posted by Philsdad


Quoting Random: WRONG.. WRONG WRONG.. You make people make Terrorists sound to be all Muslim when thats not true. What about the Oklahoma City bomber? A true terrorist in his time and yet hes a christian.


I've seen the Tim McVeigh reference many times, and I don't think it's really a fair one. First off, he was NOT a practicing Catholic at the time that he took down the Murrah building. Yes, he was brought up Catholic, but it wasn't even a part of his life at that point. The guy was a government despising loon, and that fueled him more than anything to carry out that atrocity. His former Catholicism had absolutely nothing to do with that attack. With fundamental Islamic terrorists on the other hand, there is often a direct correlation between their religion and their terrorist acts. Of course this doesn't mean that "all Muslims are terrorists" but I think it's obvious that many many more terrorist acts happen in the name of Islam than any other major monotheistic religion in the world.



Posted by Random


Quoting Philsdad: I've seen the Tim McVeigh reference many times, and I don't think it's really a fair one. First off, he was NOT a practicing Catholic at the time that he took down the Murrah building. Yes, he was brought up Catholic, but it wasn't even a part of his life at that point. The guy was a government despising loon, and that fueled him more than anything to carry out that atrocity. His former Catholicism had absolutely nothing to do with that attack. With fundamental Islamic terrorists on the other hand, there is often a direct correlation between their religion and their terrorist acts. Of course this doesn't mean that "all Muslims are terrorists" but I think it's obvious that many many more terrorist acts happen in the name of Islam than any other major monotheistic religion in the world.


So basically what your saying is that he's not a Muslim nor a Catholic terrorist.. Hmm but how do we know all of these terrorist bombers aren't of some other religion? For all we know, it could be the Israeli's who are secretly attacking us to go to war with the Middle East and get some heat off of them.

More terrorist acts happning in the name of Islam? Have you looked into the conflict in Ireland? Theres a ton of non islamic terrorists acts going on ^_^
Mostly waging wars between Catholics and Protestants using terrorists to their advantage. Its hard to assume what goes on in life when you simply don't know enough now isn't it?



Posted by Fei-on Castor


Quoting Random: So basically what your saying is that he's not a Muslim nor a Catholic terrorist.. Hmm but how do we know all of these terrorist bombers aren't of some other religion? For all we know, it could be the Israeli's who are secretly attacking us to go to war with the Middle East and get some heat off of them.

More terrorist acts happning in the name of Islam? Have you looked into the conflict in Ireland? Theres a ton of non islamic terrorists acts going on ^_^
Mostly waging wars between Catholics and Protestants using terrorists to their advantage. Its hard to assume what goes on in life when you simply don't know enough now isn't it?

In the case of the Protestant-Catholic stuff in Ireland, you can credit this to their religion. But in McVeigh's case, he didn't do what he did because he was Catholic.

When BJ said "terrorists", I think he meant "Islamic extremist terrorists, like the ones who hijacked planes on 9/11", not "any terrorist who has ever lived, ever".

And the Islamic terrorists do use their religious beliefs as a basis for their attitude towards America's decadent culture. The fact that we live in a country where getting pregnant at 16 is becoming more and more acceptable, and that we really show no respect for G*d, as a country, these facts and others like it are what they use to determine that we are deserving of such punishment. I believe (and I could be wrong) that they want to use fear to scare us into stopping the "evil" things that we do, as a country.

Furthermore, anyone who thinks that all Muslims are terrorists is a freaking retard. I will not explain why all Muslims are not terrorists. If you don't already know this by now, your opinion is of minimal importance. I say this because only a person with poor judgement and a bucket of ignorance would not understand Islam well enough after all this to still think that all Muslims are terrorists, and that sort of person, is of minimal importance. That person's opinion isn't worth my time.



Posted by Bj Blaskowitz


Quoting Random: WRONG.. WRONG WRONG.. You make people make Terrorists sound to be all Muslim when thats not true. What about the Oklahoma City bomber? A true terrorist in his time and yet hes a christian. You can't say that about any religion. My dad for one is a Muslim and I know he'd never in his life dream of doing anything terroristic. The man who slayed those amish children in Pennsylvania is another example of a Terrorist who is'nt muslim.

The War on Terrorism isn't just fought in the middle east, its fought here. The media makes terrorists to sound like ****ed off muslims. But are really all those people terrorists? If we were defending our nation from attack, does that make us terrorists? Hell no..

Terrorists want to strike fear in our hearts. That is what they're trying to achieve. They want to kill as many people as possible and strike fear into our hearts. Theres many terrorists in Iraq killing other Muslim men/women/children, its hard to say that Terrorists are there to make sure Islam is victorious over all other religions. You simply can't say that..



the terrorists that he's referencing, insofar as the ones who bring things on planes, were Muslim extremists. Homeland security didn't regulate airplanes or institute the PATRIOT Act on account of Timothy McVeigh. Judging by all of your other posts, you're really too stupid to warrant anymore of my time. And your dad can suck a cock for raising such a brainwashed conservative goon. REPUBLICANS want to strike fear in our hearts, by warnings of threats and straw men and big government. Therefore, you sir, are a terrorist? Muslim father? Hmm, judging by the current administration (which you seem to support) and how they regulate "random" wire tappings and seizures, your political agenda, which consists of supporting wire-tapping, torture, war, and fear tactics, tied in with your father being a Muslim, MUST mean you're a terrorist, right?



Posted by Fei-on Castor

Wow, Beej. Wow. Well said, man.