Another win for Evolution, and Science

I know its hard to throw out scientific data but this is a true fact theorys change when a mind is behind it. What I mean is if something just happens and we find out how it did then we log it right, but its a lot harder to figure out if there is "Someone" or something behind it, and in that case everything we knew about what we loged changes.

Hey NES if there was in fact any undenyable concrete evedince why does the Scientific community itself still call evolution a theory? Its called a theory because it hasnt been provent beyond any reasonable doubt yet. Im sure some minor scientific coincidence is enough to validate it for you, but that doesnt make it fact. So basically you BELIEVE in a theory that still exists only because other people believe in it too. Kinda of like religion, it exists because people still believe in it. SO if both creation ideas are technically faith based then why not teach them both?

Because not all religions believ in intelligent design, and due to the first amendment we can't teach the teachings of a specific religion to the general public.

If you get rid of evolution, modern biology pretty much collapses, including genetics and medicine. Effectively, 150 years of modern science's further building on the underpinnings of evolution demonstrate that it is pretty much true. You might as well disbelieve the theory of gravity or atomic theory.

That's the problem with this "debate" -- it's not a fair matchup of two ideas with compelling arguments and good research and stuff. It's one side which is clearly right and the other side who basically consist of a bunch of uneducated Americans and a few copycat religious kooks in other countries, who for some baffling reason think this aspect of basic modern science is an affront to their world view or makes Jesus cry or something. Normally I'm all for recognising that the side of a debate I don't believe in simply has different philosophical underpinnings and is coming from a different place and therefore has different conclusions and such (most of politics is like that)... but in the case of this "debate", no, the kooks are simply arguing from ignorance and are clearly and demonstrably wrong.

I wonder if the Jews or Muslims have this problem.

The only evolution I really go for is made by Mitsubishi. This is not to say that I buy into all creationism either, but it is the way I tend to lean. (btw - I totally believe that micro evolution occurs all the time - because it is plainly seen. Macro evolution is what I tend to disagree with.) I really think that people should be exposed to all theories and beliefs there are in the public education system in both the interests of balance and understanding in our modern world. Understanding, even if you don't agree with what others believe, would make the world a much more elightened one in which to live.

[quote=Poco]and people who use the bible for history/science are morons, too

Actually, a great deal of the stories can be corroborated. Like stories of King Solomon and so forth.

[quote=Klarth]There is NO proof for creationism.

This is certainly a true statement. You see, that's the idea of Faith at work. If you want to be a Christian, that's fine. You've just got to remember that the reason you believe what you do is not because there's proof. If there were proof, it would be the normal and commonly accepted idea. Because there is no proof, you have to have faith.

If G*d is there and the Christians have been correct, I'd imagine G*d would be mighty p*ssed at you all for not having faith enough to believe without proof.

Onto the topic at hand.

I feel that Creationism, or "Intelligent Design", as they now call it, is a religious concept, requiring faith and ignorance of facts. I'm not saying that in a bad way; honestly, if you want to believe in "Intelligent Design", that does mean that you have to ignore a lot of facts of which we know are fairly certain. And that's okay with me. If you personally choose to ignore facts in favor of faith, that's alright. There is no problem with that. You, as an individual, are free to do that.

However, that is not science. Science involves having a question, finding out what others have learned about your question, taking a good guess at an answer, setting up several experiments to disprove your answer, and if you can't disprove it, you can call that a credible theory. Science DOES NOT involve believing what you read out of ancient texts that were written at a time when we didn't have sufficient information to answer many of life's questions.

[quote=Aioros] Back in 1600 when Galileo was advancing the theory that the Earth revolved around the sun, the catholic church would use such passages as proof that it couldnt be true. In 1616 Pope Paul V determined that this theory was "foolish and absurd philosophically and formally heretical inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the doctrine of Holy Scripture in many passages." In other words, forget science, *** said so.

And now, we are certain that the Earth does revolve around the Sun.

My thought is that within a few hundred years, the human race will realize how absurd and ridiculous the concept of intelligent design is, and we can move forward, just as we have with the previous issue of the Earth's place in the universe.

[quote=Hig] However, you can't prove that *** didn't do what I said before, i.e., create the world at the state it would be in had it been created according to science.

Okay, Hig, you know I love you right? Okay, having said that, you need to realize that you're statement is logically correct. However, we live in a world where that just doesn't work all the time. Take Communism for example. Great idea on paper, really it is. But when put into practice, it just never pans out, and probably never will, at least, not on large scale.

What I mean is that you can go on all day about what we can't disprove. But if you want to be credible, you're gonna have to stay within that undefined realm of reason. I could theorize that none of you exist and that I'm actually dreaming all of this up and that I will wake up one day and realize that I'm actually a 64 year old woman named Thelma who lives in rural Wisconsin.

That could potentially be true. It's unlikely, but not impossible. So for now, I'll go off the assumption that I'm a 21 year old guy named Anthony who lives in Prescott, Arizona. It may be an incorrect assumption, but for now, it's the most logical one that I can operate off of.

I don't have a problem with schools teaching creationism. Schools already teach ALL KINDS of stupid s[COLOR=lightgreen]h[/COLOR]it. Teaching it as a science, however, p[COLOR=lightgreen]i[/COLOR]sses me off.

[quote=NES Queen]So are you arguing about the truth and credibility of the theory of gravity, or the theory of relativity, simply because they havn't reached the credance of scientific law?

As far as I know, theories don't become laws. Laws are explanations of single simple mechanics, and theories are explanations of many mechanics. If a theory is proven 100% right it's still a theory, and likewise a law can be proven wrong and still be a law.

[quote=specopssv44]Ive got a relativity theory for you. How are either of those examples RELATIVE to evolution? Neither of those scientific theories attempts to discredit a religious belief system.

Im not saying that any specific reigious intellegent design course should be taught. It is my personal belief that evolution is bullsh it, and offensive. So my only option in class was just to get up and walk out. Clearly my religious rights should have been observed and another option should be provided.
Wheres the ACLU protection? Oh yeah I forgot, they support everyone but christians.

No science attempts to discredit religion. Science simply doesn't give a flying fuck about religion, it's got its own thing going on: figuring out how the world works. Religion doesn't state laws of physics, chemistry or biology that can be disproven, only events that clearly weren't meant to be taken literally in the first place.

Complaining about not being protected just shows your ignorance. Science itself protects you, if you think it's bullshit and you have some decent evidence and reasoning to put a point forward then you can. Religion won't let you do that, with religion you are either correct or a heretic. Saying you want protection from science is literally saying you want protection from knowledge, reason and freedom of ideas. Think about that.

Evolution doesn't necessarily discredit any religion anyway, there are plenty of scientists and evolutionary theorists that are religious, including Charles Darwin.

It looks like the earth and all it's animals, Raptor, and humans were formed by logical scientific processes like evolution. If G*d created the universe, G*d would have made it in a state that looks logical, like this because it's logical, and if it wasn't logical, there would be some sort of logical problem, and people's heads would explode trying to understand it.
Plus, it give people an alternative to believe in.

Evolution, etc, are thought to be true because they're logical. If G*d had created a universe where this wasn't logical, the universe tiself wouldn't be logical.

Thats all well and good, but it means nothing. Just because you can make **** up that explains everything doesnt make it true. Science can be tested and falsified. Religion cannot. They are entirely different animals meant to do entirely different things. To attempt to teach them in the same class is pointless.

The guy behind the big bang theory was a catholic priest.

Internet is over. Everyone go home.

Whoa, has this whole thing been about teaching creationism in science class? I thought you guys were talking about creationism vs. evolution.

In which case, I have to point out that we're taught about creation in religeon class in every school I've ever heard of in Canada, not science class. It must be different in the US.

I'm pretty sure the Chinese worked it out long before Europeans did, too.

[COLOR="Yellow"]You know, there's this group of people called [URL="http://www.rael.org/"]Raelians[/URL] who agree with the concept of creationism and intelligent design, with one minor difference. They believe it was space aliens who created the Earth, not G[COLOR="Yellow"]o[/COLOR]d. I've mentioned them to a couple of my religious friends, and it was funny to see how they rolled their eyes and patronize these people who they think are crazy, yet they believe the exact same thing creationists do.

So i'll ask the same thing to the people here who believe in creationism. What do you think of these people? I mean, what do you REALLY think of these people? And please, be honest.[/COLOR]

I think that even though their beliefs are different than mine, that doesn't make them wrong, and it doesn't matter what other religeons think, if you have faith in your own, you're all set.

I figure, if you're going to believe in a transcendent being capable of doing everything from controlling the weather to building an entire world, aliens aren't that far-fetched. Where do you draw the line of absurdity?

OMG XENU IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR

Arwon you're always huggin on some Asiatic genitals aren't you, ya big . . . ballsack hugger.

Am I the only person who doesn't care? I mean, honestly? Where's the beloved apathy of **** that doesn't concern us? Why don't people not give a **** anymore? Really? Yay Kansas. If I ever move there, I'll be happy to have read this article. Otherwise, I'd rather stare at my huge nuts than read some crap about some school in bum**** nowhere and their bum**** agenda. Give me a call when some Supreme Court rulings start coming up and I'll care. This isn't a "win" for science, you tards. Science isn't taking up some mantle and charging forward in glory screaming the name of your Lord, Baron Isaac Newton. Quit acting like something unimportant like this is going to affect the world, because it's not. I see science as more than just proving Christianity wrong. I see the two working together to explain the unexplainable. If you people want your opinions to be taken seriously, A- respect the opinions of others, including creationalists (because, believe it or not, there are creationalists who are more intelligent than you (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743286391/102-5485692-7178519?v=glance&n=283155)
so get off your high horses and be that open-minded, tolerant person you PRETEND to be (*******s). I myself don't know anymore what I believe. That's why I didn't get involved in this argument until now. I didn't care, and I didn't have an answer. But I'm sure as hell tired of all the people badmouthing an entire group of people because they don't agree with them. Notice I don't pick fights with Arwon. Know why? Because he and I disagree on everything, yet he doesn't talk down to me, nor does he completely rule out other people's opinions. He actually considers them in entirety beforehand, which makes it VERY difficult to argue with him. That and he's hawt. Take notes, kiddies. And B- lick my balls

thank you for your time
Jeremy

I have so much respect for you now. Thank god.

....I believe in creationism through evolution.

Is that a bad thing? :(

[quote=BJ]as opposed to a bunch of kids (and NES Queen, who is educated in the field, in her own right) on this board have to say.
Thanks for not lumping me in with the 'tards ;)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and everyone will feel that theirs is the best or most correct. If someone wants to believe that aliens created all in our existance, or the reason why the human appendix no longer serves a function and some people are being born without one (it is believed that it once aided in digestion, but due to changes in the human diet it is no longer needed) is because some higher power/g0d wanted it that way, then fine. I just take offense when religious people try to pass their views of creationism off as science when it is not.

science: systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Science if founded upon observations and concrete evidence. I can say "the sky is blue" and you can look at it for yourself to prove me right or wrong. If someone were to say "g0d created man", that's much more difficult to prove, if even possible at all. And to try and use scientific reasoning to validate religious claims goes against the whole foundation of faith based religion in the first place. (omg conundrum) Point being, religious beliefs are not scientifically proven and should not be taught in a science classroom.

[quote=Aioros]I already explained this to you grandpa, i'm badmouthing Creationism, not those who believe in it. Did you forget already? It must be the old timers taking effect.
yeah.... cause the way to get people to respect you and your opinion and take anything you say seriously is to belittle and insult them. And you are quite the fool. If you are badmouthing something, you inherantly are also badmouthing anyone who agrees with or is in support of the thing you are badmouthing.

"Yellow cars are so ugly!" Well gee, if I have a yellow car, you've just insulted me.

"Creationism is stupid!" Well gee, if I believe in creationism, I too must be stupid.

And calling someone grandpa when they're just 5 months older than you just makes you look like a big fool.

[COLOR="Yellow"]I know he's not that old. I was only returning the favor since he was referring to some of us as kiddies and saying all kinds of insults involving us being young even though were obviously not that younger than him.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]lol, sarcasm.[/COLOR]

my original lashing out was more directed at Arwon with his "kooks" reference, and LoS with his typical Christian bashing. But it's cute how you came out to defend your brothers at arms. That's why I got upset about the bashing. I already said that frankly, I don't care if evolution or creationalism is taught in schools. If my kids have that one chapter wrong, I'm sure it'll get corrected according to their own personal taste in church and/or college, whichever, doesn't matter to me. I mean, I was taught evolution in school, but then the teacher would, after the lesson, inform us that "many people think we were created in a different manner." "Oh, what's that?" "***." "oooh". I said prayers before lunch in my TALENTED AND GIFTED CLASS every day from 3rd grade until 6th grade. That was the advanced class, and we prayed. And I'm not an uber Christian. Why do people assume that grade school children are so completely gullible and fickle that something they learn will not possibly be reconsidered later? You said you went to Catholic school. And now you're an atheist. Obviously, you weren't so easily coerced by what you were taught that it forced you to believe it ten years later. Why do people care so much? I just don't get it. As for the grandpa jokes *golf clap*. The part about you putting spin on science being truth obviously went over your head, as did the "scientific truth" being monotonous part, so I won't even bother re-addressing them.