[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/Speedfreak312002/rev1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/Speedfreak312002/rev2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/Speedfreak312002/rev3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/Speedfreak312002/rev4.jpg[/IMG]
These are screenshots from the Ubisoft FPS you may have heard about. The controller tracks how you hold your gun (ie gansta style), you can lean against objects with just a tilt, all aimng is done with the controller AND IT JUST LOOKS FREAKIN' SWEET.
Scans from Gameinformer. There's an article on Joystiq with more info.
EDIT: THERE IS ALSO A SWORD.
*** ****IT AND I WAS JUST ABOUT TO MAKE THIS THREAD. **** YOU.
I hope this is a launch title. If not, I will buy it on the day it is out. Ignore what I said a few months ago about wanting to use the shell for FPS control.
Also, the graphics are far superior to GCN, which is a pleasant surprise. I was expecting something along the lines of the Metroid Prime 3 demo video.
I know, that in time, that controller will fail. horribly. even though it and the game look awsome :(. and gangsta mode? ALLRIIIIIIEEGHT!
It's funny you mention the Prime 3 demo, because the model of Samus is about as detailed a model as you could possibly get, unless they wanted her suit to be completely smooth and shiny. Things that were represented by textures in the Prime 2 suit were fully fleshed out with polygons, and there were plenty more to smooth off the edges.
Looks rad from a "I want to play this" standpoint.
Looks lame from a story stand point, though.
The trouble with judging anything from the metroid demo is nothing in the metroid world can be compared real life.
As for the screenshots this is indeed very promising, it's exactly what Nintendo needs to draw some attention from XBox and PS fans. Good graphics and guns! Not to mention the fact that it actually makes good use of the controller.
Sweeeeeeet, looks great. I'll love this controller style.
[quote=Lord of Spam]Looks rad from a "I want to play this" standpoint.
Looks lame from a story stand point, though.
How the f...?
Judging by the pics, I mean. There doesnt seem to be anyplot that I can tell that would interest me.
I'm not passing any judgement on it. I'm aware that I know nothing about it other than it uses a new controller stlye. I was merely stating what I thought based on the pictures given.
Um, okay. Here's a screenshot for Metal gear Solid 1. Tell me what you can about the plot just from this:
I dunno, shooting up gangsters in a pachinko arcade could have a deep and involved backstory.
You dig?
Edit @Speedy: THERE'S SNOW, I HATE SNOW. ALL GAMES WITH SNOW ARE ABOUT RUSSIA, I HATE RUSSIA. IT LOOKS BORING AND UNINSPIRED.
Oh shi...
I was hoping it'd be some first party title or something. :(
But hey, I'm not complaining. :cool: It looks sweet. I'd like to see more how the controller is implemented. And how about the sword...
I probably won't buy it, because by the time the system comes out, FPS pics and controller usage won't be anything new. The only reason it's causing such an uproar is because it's the first game shown. Funny how the first shown Rev game is a violent, "gangsta" game. That's not a bad thing though, it doesn't automatically give the rev a kiddy image.
holy fagasaurus sex, Rev screens!!! They look quite good, too, yum.
called Katana btw Edit: Or apparently Red Steel?
Edit: fapasaurus sex.
I believe it when I play the game. Personally, I don't think it'll look that good.
But that's just me.
i plan on only playing that game for the gangsta mode.:cool:
And didn't you complain about San Andreas and how "gangster" it was?
[quote=Lord of Spam]For that to work, it would have to be a game that I had no knowledge of. I know what the plot to MGS1 is, so no matter how hard I try to block it out, it will always influence what I see. Furthermore, way to get ****y over nothing.:cookie:
So I'm right? Okay, cool. :cool:
That was aimed at Speedfreak.
this gives us evidence, assuming they are actual screens, that revolution looks beautiful.
Looks amazing. Those graphics can definetly compete against the 360.
That looks like great fun. I'd probably have trouble keeping myself from laughing when I first start out playing with that controller. Even when I'm alone and when playing an intense, action packed, frightful game, I'll still chuckle. It's just going to feel so KoRnY at first. It'll be difficult for me to go back to a regular controller after experiencing this revolutionary design.
I'd think it be even more of an experience if there was no type of crosshair.
If you hold the gun sideways like a tool, they should occaisionally have a shell fly up and stick to the screen, leaving a nasty burn mark on it and costing you some health. That's realism.
Huh, that looks almost a little too good. Unless the Revolution will be more powerful than most people suspect, I'd say they were fake. Then again, with Nintendo basically *****ing about Sony's use of CG at E3, I doubt they would do that.
Either way, one thing's for sure, that game looks good. In fact, it looks almost justy as good as most 360 games. I'm definitely looking forward to using the new controller on this game.
[quote=Roinkz]And didn't you complain about San Andreas and how "gangster" it was?
I didn't say I was going to hold it "gansta" style. I just thought it was cool that it would work out how you're holding your gun.
My guess about this exceeding most people's expectations? Nintendo told IGN to report specs for their devkits, people's expectations drop and when we do finally see screenshots we literally say "wow" even though they're not looking like Xbox 360 screenshots.
Although I am loving the lack of bump-mapping here, overuse ot that effect has made most next-gen games look ghastly.
Okay, I know these screens are likely to be genuine, but does anyone notice that in two of the screenshots, one of the characters is in the exact same pose?
Awesome game, btw. :cool:
i'm gunna hole the controller upside down :cool:
[quote=The X]Okay, I know these screens are likely to be genuine, but does anyone notice that in two of the screenshots, one of the characters is in the exact same pose?
Awesome game, btw. :cool:
Ha! I think that's proof that they're geniune, if anything. It's probably a "lean out and shoot" pose.
Except he's in the middle of a hall. But yeah, that's exactly what it is from the looks of it.
Edit: Oh and here: http://revolution.ign.com/articles/700/700748p1.html
Full control over a sword (block, swing, stab), online, launch title, et cetera.
why is there 2 A and B buttons?
wait a second i think theres 3 b buttons.(the head thing). but i dont think its a button. it just says b.
Your gonna have a hell of a time trying to control this... but lets not get upset about that now, shall we? :cool:
Wow, can't wait to get my hands on this game. Most likely that I'll get this game at launch along with the Revolution.
It's amazing how just the controller makes what would otherwise be a pretty generic shooter suddenly fascinating. Too bad the same can't be said for graphics, GRAW still looks boring as hell to me.
The graphics definitely look sweet as hell on that game. And to think, that game is still being designed. If all of the revolution games come out looking this shiny, they won't have a problem at all competing with the xbox 360.
Alright, from what I can gather these are "target renders". That is to say not running on final hardware, which should be no surprise as no one has final hardware yet. They're pictures based off of what the specs are going to be and what they estimate the final game will look like.
The phrase "target render" might bring some people nasty memories of such "bullshot" images that companies like EA and Sony put out, that most of the time don't remotely resemble the final product. However, Nintendo's Zelda Spaceworld demo and Factor 5's Rogue leader demo were also target renders, and they were actually wrose than the final product.
It depends on just how much the company is willing to lie to you. Last I checked, Ubisoft Paris (makers of this game, and do all the Splinter Cell and Prince of Persia games) aren't one to indulge in such deception.
The strange thing is I'm also hearing reports they Game Informer actually played it, or at least someone did. I'm guessing the images are target renders that look extremely close to how their game actually looks, though I could be wrong. At the very least I'm not expecting any Madden 2006/Motorstorm fiascos.
No, see, you missed what I said. Target renders don't necessarily mean "better than the final product". I spent 2 paragraphics explaining that you insensitive bastard.
I haven't played GRAW, so I don't actually know if it is boring or not. But it doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly novel, just a current gen game with pretty wrapping. You (hopefully) get the point, anyway. The controller does much more for old gameplay than graphic updates will ever do.
EDIT: Oh, apparantly they aren't target renders but actual in-game shots from the latest build, according to the article....apparantly. The 2 poses the enemies are in are the same pose, but they're slightly different. You can actually see the limbs are at different angles in the 2 shots, which actually hints at a pretty sophisticated animation system.
Doesn't ANYONE here have the magazine yet?
I think we can all gather that. Or those of us who aren't blatent Sony/Microsoft fanboys.
AHA! Okay, officialy those are in-game shots. The level is a test level, a shooting range where enemies pop up from behind cover, which explains the poses. Now here's a big fat list of features.
-Game development started shortly after E3 2005. Ubisoft saw and demoed the controller before E3 2005.
-Ubisoft Paris took their idea directly to Iwata and Miyamoto, and were given the go ahead. After that meeting they were given prototype controllers. The article states that Ubisoft worked "closely" with Nintendo's engineers in Japan on the title
-Game Informer mentions that while conducting the interviews with Ubisoft, they were handed the "latest version" of the controller
-During the beginning of the game, you are encouraged to use your weapons ruthlessly, but as the game progresses you become more proficient and strategic. This gameplay idea led Ubisoft to decide to give the game a martial arts setting. "Enter the Yakuza"
-The first third of the game will be all about being "brutal by necessity"
-You will be less precise and favor more devastating weapons (machine guns)
-As you progress and become more precise, smaller guns will be used
-"The goal...is to use five bullets to kill five enemies"
-"When fighting with this level of skill, the music and sound effects will reflect it, remaining calm and peaceful"
-"When you fight brutally, the sounds around you grow increasingly more intense"
-"Audio feedback"
-Freeze shot: by fighting effciently you fill the Freeze Shot gauge...fighting chaotically causes to decreases
-When the gauge is filled you can hit a button to momentarily stop time, and then target specific locations on enemy bodies
-Headshots thus are tempting, but non lethal shots, such as shooting guns out of enemy hand, can be more beneficial
-By defeating high ranking leaders who command others and sparing their lives, you will be rewarded. He will offer you respect and help (guns, help, new weapons, alternate paths, etc)
-Respect plays a MAJOR part in the game
[INDENT]-Flailing your sword isn't a smart idea
-Specific motions with the controller will trigger combos (in the final game)
-Tracing an X in the air, for instance, will unleash a devastating attack
-You can stop these combos at any time by simply pausing your own movement. So if you do something that leaves you open to attack, you won't be screwed
-New moves will be taught to you by two mentors in the game
-One will teach you gun tactics, and another will teach sword tactics
-If you don't show the proper respect to them, they won't help you
-Friendly/respectful interaction is tied to the controller
-You signal "yes/no" answers by nodding the controller up or down or shaking it from side to side
-You show extra respect by bowing to the masters
-Ubisoft is still coming up with other interactions
-"You can act disrespectively as well: there are no cut scenes in the game - all conversations take place in game, as in Half Life 2. However unlike that game, characters wont keep prattling on if you walk away from them. They will react angrily to your imputent behavior"
-Staying in the master's good graces is key: they give you missions that can be tackled in any order
-You track down the gang leaders and try to turn them to your side. If you don't, they will join Tokai's (the main villian) gang
-You have to prove you are worthy to them by battling them and sparing their lives.
-You will need as many of them with you as possible to face Tokai. Without their help, you'll have a rough time when you finally face him
-You turn gang leaders to your side by besting them in battle and stopping a deadly blow miliseconds before it strikes
-Training sessions are offered by the two masters so you can hone your skills [/INDENT][INDENT]Game Informer's hands on:
-The two triggers on the front of the analog unit activate ducking and jumping. The analog stick controls movement, and the revmote controls aiming. No rails.
-Level consisted of shooting ranges that popped out from behind cover
"Aiming with the controller is as simple as using a laser pointer. You point your hand at a target and hit the trigger on the underside of the controller to fire
-"Unlike other FPS games, which tie the camera and aiming together, Red Steel's camera follows your aim with a slight delay. If, for example, you point to the edge of the screen, the camera will turn to re-center on your view after a second. With the sensitivity of the controller, a standard FPS control would move too much, potentially making the player feel ill
-"Thanks to the improved reaction that the controller offers, the team can create gunfight scenerios that would be extraordinarily diffilcult with a standard controller"
-Most console FPS games limit their enemies to horizontal planes to prevent player frustration, but targets on a verticle plane are just as easy to hit with the Revolution controller
-You can aim at a target as quickly as you can move your hand
-In the demo targets popped up on rooftops and in second story windows, as well as behind cover points on the ground, and all were equally easy to hit
-While you can quickly shoot enemies anywhere on screen, Red Steel never feels in a light-gun game - this is a true FPS, one that feels like it has drawn from the best of both the PC and console shooter worlds
-Straffing is extremely easy and effortless
-"Aiming felt similar to using a PC mouse, and it's possible to quickly explore every direction in a three-dimensional space with quick gestures"
-"In the finished game, you will be able to push forward with the controller to knock over an object to use for cover, pull it backwards to reload, and twist it to lead behind walls"
-Lob grenades with the controller, or roll them on the ground like a bowling ball
-"gangsta style" shooting is cool
-Total immersion. Feels like you are living the game
-According to lead game designer Oriola, it takes roughly three seconds to turn completely around around in most console shooters, while it takes about one-quarter second in a PC game. In Red Stel, it takes one second
-AI characters will care for themselves. They will go for cover, attack you while you're reloading. They focus on risk management
-"They won't walk around a table to get to you. They will simply jump over the table"
-"The benchmark for their intelligence and aggressiveness, says Oriola, is the PC title F.E.A.R., which has widely been praised for it's AI"[/INDENT]
As soon as you can pre-order the Revolution and Red Steel, I'll be down at Gamestop putting money down on it.
Holy hell, that actually sounds really interesting. Go figured.
My overall feeling with all that is "huh, badass!". :)
[IMG]http://blogst.no.sapo.pt/ffviiac-taiten_rude.jpg[/IMG]
Anyone see a resemblance?
Being bald and wearing shades isn't that big of a coincidence.
I didn't call it a coincidence. I know that, Im just playing around.
I actually wish I could see those pictures up close. Its hard to look at them like that and make an opinion, Until you actually see the game on your own TV screen. Sounds like fun though, and it reminded me of Time Crisis at the arcade I used to go.
**** i want this game. The way you can sway people to turn to your side sounds so creative and amazing. My ***, why do I have to get so excited for a Revolution this early?
And just think, less than 30 days until we get the real details.
Jesus Christ, E3's only a month away? That came up quickly...
[quote]Development Information
* Development started soon after E3 2005
* Ubisoft demoed controller before E3 2005 (Official controller unveiling was at TGS 2005)
* Ubisoft Paris took idea directly to Miyamoto and Iwata who gave the green light
* Nintendo worked very closed with Ubisoft on project
* Game Informer saw the "latest version" of the controller during their interview
Game Information
* Martial Arts setting
* First third of the game requires you to be brutal out of neccessity
* You use quick and dirty weapons at first and move on to more precise and clean weapons as you progress
* Eventually, you'll go by the philosophy of "five bullets to kill five enemies"
* Music reflects your play style - calm and peaceful when you're precise; intense when brutal
* Freeze Shot Gauge fills up as you fight efficiently, decreases when you fight brutally
* Full gauge lets you freeze time to pick off specific body parts
* Shooting guns out of enemy hands might be more beneficial than headshots at that point in time
* After defeating enemy leaders, sparing their lives can help you in the long run as well as earn you respect - weapons, new paths, etc.
* Respect is very, very important
* Having your sword flailing around isn't smart
* Controller can be used to pull off combos - i.e.. draw an "X" in the air to do a special attack
* Special attack can be cancelled by stopping your movement
* You will learn new moves through two different mentors - a gun mentor and a sword mentor
* If you do not give your mentor respect, they will not teach you
* Yes/No answers answered by moving controller up/down to nod or left/right to shake your head
* Bowing to the masters shows more respect
* Ubisoft is thinking of more controller functions even now
* No cut-scenes in the game, everything done in real time
* Walking away from a conversation shows disrespect to the person talking to you; they will get angry
* Mentors give you missions that can be done in any order as long as you are respectful to them
* Main villain's name is "Tokai"
* You can try to get rival gang leaders to join your side, if not, they will join Tokai's side
* To prove yourself worthy, you must fight the rival gang leaders first
* You win by stopping a deadly hit milliseconds before it hits you
* Getting rival leaders to join you is vital - otherwise you'll be screwed against Tokai in the eventual confrontation
Controls
* Two triggers on analog unit let you jump and duck
* Movement controlled by analog stick (no rails)
* Remote used to aim and shoot (duh)
Game Informer Quotes
* "Aiming with the controller is as simple as using a laser pointer. You point your hand at a target and hit the trigger on the underside of the controller to fire."
* "Unlike other FPS games, which the the camera and aiming together, Red Steel's camera follows your aim with a slight delay. If, for example, you point to the edge of the screen, the camera will turn to re-center on your view after a second. With the sensitivity of the controller, a standard FPS control would move too much, potentially making the player feel ill."
* "Thanks to the improved reaction that the controller offers, the team can create gunfight scenarios that would be extraordinarily diffilcult with a standard controller".
* "[The AI] won't walk around a table to get to you. They will simply jump over the table".
Game Informer Impressions
* Unlike most console FPSs, enemies are arranged on both the horizontal and vertical plane; possible to due to ease of use of the Revolution Controller
* Speed of aiming is equal to however fast you can move your hand to the desired position
* Targets popped up in second story windows, rooftops, and cover points on ground - all were equally easy to target
* Does not feel like a light-gun game - takes the best of console and PC fps games
* Takes three seconds to fully turn in a console shooter, takes a quarter-second in PC shooter, take one second on Revolution
* AI is intelligent - cover while you're attacking, attack while you're reloading
* AI is based on the benchmark set by F.E.A.R according to lead designer Oriola
Multiplayer
* Split-screen multiplayer available with deathmatches
* Original multiplayer modes will be revealed at E3 (Sword fights? Please?)
* Will contain Nintendo WiFi Connection play - nothing revealed due to NDAs
Discuss and spooge.
HAUGA SCANARU!!!
Yeah, not my scans and I don't feel like uploading them to some host. So if they die, oh well.
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/9186/rs22ll.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/2659/rs33tu.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/732/rs47ft.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/3631/rs51ca.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/6355/rs89fn.jpg
http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/3118/rs90sa.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/5746/rs101va.jpg
http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/6884/rs119qe.jpg
http://img428.imageshack.us/img428/2545/rs126mv.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/485/rs132xo.jpg
Yeah, none of those links work. :l
Huh, they were working a couple minutes ago. I'll see if I can get anymore links. Should have saved them I guess.
can't, I stole them from this guy on some other site who stole them from some other guy on some other site.
http://www.nessense.com/2006/04/11/red-steel-quality-images/
56k take caution.
Ok, one more time. I at least saved them this time, though. Oh, and it seems the person who scanned some of these is a retard, so just ignore the ****ty quality on a few. Still readable however.
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/1.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/1.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/3.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/4.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/5.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/RS6.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/RS7.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/RS8.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/RS9.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/RS10.jpg
http://2nr.lavacube.com/red_steel/RS11.jpg
[url]www.redsteelgame.com[/url]
****, I'll upload them to a host soon then.
If this doesn't work... then you guys are outta luck.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/RS6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/RS7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/RS8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/RS9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/RS10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/RS11.jpg
Can see the pictures fine, but the text is a little blurry. I'll just wait for when my Game Informer arrives, which should be Friday or Monday.
Yeah, still readable though. Can't do much about it unfortunately.
Jesus Christ, I want this game almost as much as Zelda now. In fact, in some ways I want it more.
Easier to read?:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text31.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text32.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text33.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/VampiroV.Empire/text7.jpg
Are the visuals really that great? I mean, I think MGS 3 looks better than this. Yeah, yeah you're impressed that it's "up there" with the PS3 and 360 but it still looks like a current-gen game to me.
[quote=Prince Shondronai]Nyeh. I've never been much interested in gangster "culture" in any way, shape, or form, so this game doesn't excite me. The newly-announced Sadness has me intrigued, however. It'd be nice if some screens had been released along with the game announcement, but I guess we'll see them soon enough. Black-and-white graphics are sure to turn some people off, but the title sounds rather original from what's been announced so far.
Really there's no reason to be excite for Red Steel. It's the first game announced/semi-shown for the Revolution. Big deal. I wanted the GAMECUBE's unreleased tech-demos more than this. If there's going to be around 20 launch titles for the system, trust me, this game'll probably be lost in the bunch. Ubisoft probably knows it, too, and that's why they wanted to be the first to show off their game.
The thing that excites me isn't that it's an FPS, just that it's a game that uses the controller really bloody well. I don't think the Yakuza really come under "ganster culture" anyway. Hell, if it did I wouldn't want it, I never bought GTA for the same reason. As Ant said, I'm probably going to be blown away by everything we get at E3.
Roinkz: Most current 360 games look current gen, this just proves that the supposed HD era is completely meaningless when put next to a device that has such raw gameplay potential.
This game's graphics are amazing. They look just as good as 360 games, in my opinion. I don't know why people said it wouldn't be as good.
It's funny, because i view most 360 games' graphics as crap, where I see this game as amazing. It's not because i'm a fanboy (not entirely at least). I think it's more because of how much hype Microsoft put on their graphics, and how people said Revolution's graphic would not look as good as the 360.
This game will make me come.
My goodness... I cannot wait for this! :o
[quote=Drewboy64]I don't know why people said it wouldn't be as good.
Because the Revo's specs aren't THAT much better than the GCN's.
[quote=Klarth]Because the Revo's specs aren't THAT much better than the GCN's.
Judging from the Red Steel shots I beg to differ. There are things going on in that game that Gamecube couldn't even dream of doing.
Well, that's assuming the Gamecube even has dreams. Do you know ANYTHING?
Apparantly not!
At another forum we've been analysing the shots, we've concluded that Broadway at least is capable of some amazing physics. Check out all the creases in the clothes, they seem to all be formed dynamically.
Nintendo downplayed Gamecube's power too. The most they said was that it was 33% faster than PS2, but when you take into account all their hardware lights, texture compression and so on for the most part it accounts for more than double the power.
Aside from that I don't think they ever downplayed to "GC 1.5" level. They've always said on SD resolutions you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Wow, thats a nice controller :D
EDIT: Yes, I have not read up on anything on the revolution and am now thinking about doing so.
Considering this isn't even a Nintendo game, I think we can expect to see some amazing graphics in games like Smash Brothers or Zelda. Although Nintendo did work closely with ubisoft, so I don't know.
So does swordplay in this game work by moving the controller=swinging the sword, plus some combos by doing patterns like an X? Or does no one know yet?
